Ex-managers: I'm pining for the past and cannot move on

[Finney Is Back]

Re: Sherwood would we be better off if he stayed?

Also, just coz I'm bored:

AVB's best season, Bale was THE man. He scored 21 league goals. If you took his goals away from all the games they were scored in, and modified the results accordingly, you'd have to take 24 points away from our total. Crudely put, Bale got 33.3% of our points.

For Sherwood, let's say Ade was the man. 11 goals in Sherwood's league games and if you took them away, you'd take 9 points from Sherwood's total. Ade got 21.4% of the points for Sherwood.

Very crude stats, but they do help to illustrate the relative importance of each player to the manager.

Nice stats well presented.... But I think you've failed to adjust them for AVB's sharp, continental dress sense and gravely voiced English with a Portuguese accent compared to Tim's Spurs Gillet and cor blimey ****ney accent. I think you'll find that when you adjust for this Adebayor will have been responsible for 100% of Sherwood's points and Bale 5% of AVBs points.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Re: Sherwood would we be better off if he stayed?

The difference between AVB and Sherwood last season were the Southampton, Stoke and West Brom games. Sherwood got both home and away.

Norwich: AVB won at home, Sherwood lost away

Chelsea: AVB drew at home, Sherwood lost away

Hull: AVB won at home, Sherwood drew away

Everton: Sherwood won at home, AVB drew away

Saudi Sportswashing Machine: Sherwood won away, AVB lost at home

Man U: Sherwood won away, AVB drew at home

Sherwood wins 10-9. Big ****ing difference. Wooo!

They both lost some, drew some and won some.... What were their respective points per game totals in the league?

 

[glorygloryeze]

Re: Sherwood would we be better off if he stayed?

But I think most of our attacking players look poor as we're too slow to move the ball from defence to attack. By the time Ade,Lamela and Eriksen are on the ball passing options are closed down there's 2 banks of drfenders. Are looked isolated all season and Kane came in against Stoke bang in form but looked just as lost playing in that team as Ade

Not sure that's been the case for at least half of our games. Commentators have noted that we've looked to counter attack very quickly. The QPR, Soton, Emirates Marketing Project and Saudi Sportswashing Machine (first half) games it was particularly mentioned. We do lack pace in the squad overall though; sadly the pace we do have in Townsend is nullified by his poor decision making sadly.

Also, Ade has had many chances to score more and has missed key chances, which came in crucial times in the games: Liverpool, Sunderland, West Brom and Villa. We might not be creating as much as we'd hope, but we ARE creating them.

 

[LCLC]

Re: Sherwood would we be better off if he stayed?

Standard people slating him based on heresay and garbage that I am sure they have made up in their heads.

Objectively we probably would have done better as he had already highlighted the 'rotten eggs' in the squad and they wouldn't have been here. He knew the club and would have (judging by what I read) gone for pragmatic signings (Reid, Barry, lukaku, Milner, Lescott, remy etc) so would have injected some much needed PL experience in the side. Oh yeah and players with a lot more quality than what we have.

He didn't deserve to get the job after all the media talk and he did wind me up like everyone else. However, he deserved much more credit than he got on here.... Some fans from the word go did everything to **** him off and belittle him, even in the face of good results. He is a good manager, was a massive advocate of youth and I am certain we would be better off now...... Poch is slowly learning what TS already had done and as such it is safe to say that continuity would have benefited us. I like poch and hope he comes good, but this isn't even an argument.

 

[the dza]

Re: Sherwood would we be better off if he stayed?

The difference between AVB and Sherwood last season were the Southampton, Stoke and West Brom games. Sherwood got both home and away.

Norwich: AVB won at home, Sherwood lost away

Chelsea: AVB drew at home, Sherwood lost away

Hull: AVB won at home, Sherwood drew away

Everton: Sherwood won at home, AVB drew away

Saudi Sportswashing Machine: Sherwood won away, AVB lost at home

Man U: Sherwood won away, AVB drew at home

Sherwood wins 10-9. Big ****ing difference. Wooo!

Well there's that ANNNDDDD...

AVB P16 W8 D3 L5 -- of the games won, only 2 of them were by a bigger margin than 1 goal. 0 games were won by a bigger margin than 2 goals. We were struggling to create chances inside the opponents box and, therefore, scraping by. We never scored more than twice in any of these 16 league games. In 10 out of 16 games, we didn't score more than 1 goal.

Sherwood P22 W13 D3 L6 -- of the games won, 6 were won by 2 goals or more, with 4 of those being won by 3 or more goals. Also, in 9 of the 22 games, we scored 3 or more goals. We were creating many more clear chances to score and it was showing in the results.

AVB was struggling without Bale imo. Sherwood took the same group and got them scoring far more goals.

 

[LCLC]

Re: Sherwood would we be better off if he stayed?

Any team with SaS up front would have won the league that season. The best thing Sherwood did for that team was to miraculously keep his flappy trap shut long enough to avoid backstabbing them all and ruining the team.

Other notable PFA team of the year winners:

David Bardsley
Steve Stone
Rob Lee
Kevin Phillips
Wes Brown
Andrew Johnson
Jamie Carragher
Glen Johnson

Are we judging them on their ability now or are you going to ignore the fact that rob lee, wes brown, carragher, kevin Phillips were all class players at different points in their career and the others had exceptional seasons.

It is so frustrating that you turn into a complete macaron everytime Sherwood is discussed when you presumably have never met the guy, been managed by him or know the first thing about him away from football. It's really really strange. Plucking random stories from various media over 20 years to back your argument is pathetic

 

[DHSF]

Re: Sherwood would we be better off if he stayed?

I thought he deserved an opportunity. He was a rough diamond i.e. he had a great deal to learn on his persona etc but in terms of the coaching side and tactical side, I think he would have done fairly well, definitely not worse than what we have endured this season anyways.

I think he will turn out to be a good coach and manager at a club... he strikes me as intelligent even if he sounds like a '****' as some on here may argue.

 

[DHSF]

Re: Sherwood would we be better off if he stayed?

The difference between AVB and Sherwood last season were the Southampton, Stoke and West Brom games. Sherwood got both home and away.

Norwich: AVB won at home, Sherwood lost away

Chelsea: AVB drew at home, Sherwood lost away

Hull: AVB won at home, Sherwood drew away

Everton: Sherwood won at home, AVB drew away

Saudi Sportswashing Machine: Sherwood won away, AVB lost at home

Man U: Sherwood won away, AVB drew at home

Sherwood wins 10-9. Big ****ing difference. Wooo!

Yep and we all know how one point makes a big difference - ****ing hell what a joke. Besides stuff like this is a joke in itself... circumstances are totally different suffice to say.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Re: Sherwood would we be better off if he stayed?

I actually think if we'd started with Sherwood in charge we'd have even less points now.

- He effectively destroyed what little morale and team harmony that still remained after AVB's sacking; Do you REALLY think he would built this back up again?
- All this talk of us going for players like Lukaku, Barry, Remy etc; this is a big leap of assumption that they would have been gagging to play for Sherwood, esp given his antics as manager last season
- We feel our defence is exposed enough as it is with Capoue; how much worse would it be with some random CM combination? How's about Paulinho alongside Eriksen anyone? Entirely plausible!
- Do monthly dressing punch-ups equal more points?
- The players who HAVE improved so far this year, would they have done so under TS? Rose? Naughton? Chadli? Lamela?
- He would likely have been found out very early on by opposition coaches and would have started his not-me-guv spiel even earlier

I think the thought of Sherwood starting the season as manager might even have led to less ST sales (though perhaps some might see that as a good thing).

Sherwood did well results wise whilst in charge but it would have been in no way a good long-term appointment to keep him here after that.

Let's not let bad performances and results currently revise what went on last season with Sherwood on and off the field.

 

[LCLC]

Re: Sherwood would we be better off if he stayed?

Let's not forget that AVB presided over selling various members of the squad and brining in 'superior' imports from around the world. Whilst not every signing would have been his first choice - he bought players of a certain style to fit his team.... These players are a major cause of our issues now.

For TS to take on that group, have major differences with some members of the squad and have no chance to bring his own players was a tall ask. The fact he did OK suggests he wasn't a mug who has zero intelligence who wasn't fit to manage a school side (because footballers are notoriously intellectual)

He did pretty well - ****ed up any chance he had of keeping it - but he did pretty well.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: Sherwood would we be better off if he stayed?

He didn't have enough experience to manage at the kind of level we are aspiring to be playing at and we made too many individual mistakes just like we did under AVB. Although I'm starting to think it's because we just have **** players as we are still seeing the same brainfarts from the same players week in week out. Even the better players i.e. Verts and Eriksen have regressed.

On the pitch, I'm not so sure we would be worse off.

I'm inclined to think we would have seen the good Ade.

We may not have seen any of Lamela, not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

The football was much better than what we saw under AVB, but was still pretty crap.

Some were against him from the start and were so biased that even winning the league wouldn't have won him any brownie points.

Ultimately, I would have liked him to stay at the club in some capacity, but not as manager.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Re: Sherwood would we be better off if he stayed?

He didn't have enough experience to manage at the kind of level we are aspiring to be playing at and we made too many individual mistakes just like we did under AVB. Although I'm starting to think it's because we just have **** players as we are still seeing the same brainfarts from the same players week in week out. Even the better players i.e. Verts and Eriksen have regressed.

On the pitch, I'm not so sure we would be worse off.

I'm inclined to think we would have seen the good Ade.

We may not have seen any of Lamela, not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

The football was much better than what we saw under AVB, but was still pretty crap.

Some were against him from the start and were so biased that even winning the league wouldn't have won him any brownie points.

Ultimately, I would have liked him to stay at the club in some capacity, but not as manager.

I'm intrigued to know why you think we would have seen the 'Good Ade'; Poch has played him just as much as Sherwood did...

Also, Verts regressed under TS as well (and before that arguably under AVB, perhaps he's just been found out as many feared he would be in the end when the Youtube clips from his time at Ajax were pored over..)

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: Sherwood would we be better off if he stayed?

I'm intrigued to know why you think we would have seen the 'Good Ade'; Poch has played him just as much as Sherwood did...

Because Sherwood managed to get him firing again. I don't claim to know for sure because lets face it, NO ONE knows what Ade will turn up from one day to the next. But I think he'd be playing better than he is now. He seemed to show a lot of confidence in him, not saying Poch hasn't, but it appears from the outside that they had a good working relationship.

 

[Baleforce]

Re: Sherwood would we be better off if he stayed?

Did sherwood get him firing again or was it just Halleys turn on the telescope?

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: Sherwood would we be better off if he stayed?

I'm intrigued to know why you think we would have seen the 'Good Ade'; Poch has played him just as much as Sherwood did...

Also, Verts regressed under TS as well (and before that arguably under AVB, perhaps he's just been found out as many feared he would be in the end when the Youtube clips from his time at Ajax were pored over..)

True but we saw the best from Eriksen than we did under AVB or Poch (so far).

 

[glorygloryeze]

Re: Sherwood would we be better off if he stayed?

Because Sherwood managed to get him firing again. I don't claim to know for sure because lets face it, NO ONE knows what Ade will turn up from one day to the next. But I think he'd be playing better than he is now. He seemed to show a lot of confidence in him, not saying Poch hasn't, but it appears from the outside that they had a good working relationship.

I don't see anything that Sherwood did with Ade that Poch hasn't been doing. In fact remember in the summer Poch said that he saw Ade as very central to his plans" and he seems to have kept to his word. If not for his poor finishing and poor control (it's like he aged 3 years in 6 months!) he wouldn't have been dropped/taken off as he has been recently.

I think he was on one of those purple patches when Sherwood cane in (mainly likely to prove a point to AVB)

 

[the dza]

Re: Sherwood would we be better off if he stayed?

I actually think if we'd started with Sherwood in charge we'd have even less points now.

- He effectively destroyed what little morale and team harmony that still remained after AVB's sacking; Do you REALLY think he would built this back up again?
- All this talk of us going for players like Lukaku, Barry, Remy etc; this is a big leap of assumption that they would have been gagging to play for Sherwood, esp given his antics as manager last season
- We feel our defence is exposed enough as it is with Capoue; how much worse would it be with some random CM combination? How's about Paulinho alongside Eriksen anyone? Entirely plausible!
- Do monthly dressing punch-ups equal more points?
- The players who HAVE improved so far this year, would they have done so under TS? Rose? Naughton? Chadli? Lamela?
- He would likely have been found out very early on by opposition coaches and would have started his not-me-guv spiel even earlier

I think the thought of Sherwood starting the season as manager might even have led to less ST sales (though perhaps some might see that as a good thing).

Sherwood did well results wise whilst in charge but it would have been in no way a good long-term appointment to keep him here after that.

Let's not let bad performances and results currently revise what went on last season with Sherwood on and off the field.

I'm not sure why you assume it would have all fallen apart, given that we won 4 of the last 6 league games -- the very last game being a 3-0 win.

The main thing that holds a football club together, imo, is winning and scoring goals infront of the home crowd. Everything else follows from that. You can fix everything else but without that, the manager and players come under pressure from the fans and the chairman gets itchy feet.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: Sherwood would we be better off if he stayed?

Did sherwood get him firing again or was it just Haleys turn on the telescope?

Depends how you see it or which managers you rate and which you don't.

The arguement for some seems to be:

Bale playing well under AVB - AVB gets credit

Bale, Lennon, Kaboul, Modric etc play well under Redknapp - Nothing to do with Redknapp.

Adebayor plays well under Sherwood - Not really anything to do with Sherwood, just Ade playing for a contract.

 

[Baleforce]

Re: Sherwood would we be better off if he stayed?

I think evidence of previous work probably pays a part as well.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Re: Sherwood would we be better off if he stayed?

I'm not sure why you assume it would have all fallen apart, given that we won 4 of the last 6 league games -- the very last game being a 3-0 win.

The main thing that holds a football club together, imo, is winning and scoring goals infront of the home crowd. Everything else follows from that. You can fix everything else but without that, the manager and players come under pressure from the fans and the chairman gets itchy feet.

Indeed;do you really think we would have gone to West Ham and won? With 10 men??
Fat Sam methods were too much for Tim imo. Imagine the atmosphere after that defeat.
Then the QPR game; a toss-up as to whether we would have won it the way we did. I'm not even going to think about the Liverpool match...

We would likely have started on a negative slope and after the previous season I could see it going downhill rapidly; like Ramos, Hoddle and Jol (in their last seasons). Often the negativity from the previous season spills over if there is not clean (or relatively clean) break; be that a new manager or new injection of players on needed positions.

I'd fear that Sherwood wouldn't have developed a plan B and we'd be counter-attacked all the way to the bottom 5 by now...