Xavi Simons

[Robbo]

Not even a card

Yep. And they wonder why fans are dissatisfied with VAR.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Yep. And they wonder why fans are dissatisfied with VAR.

Well they don’t care on that front IMO

 

[Yiddo]

I hope Xavi comes good, My son has got a black kit with his name on under the tree (His choice!)

So has mine.

 

[Yiddo]

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[glasgowspur]

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That gets worse every time you see it, deliberate and forcefully.

 

[thfcsteff]

This is true, literally what happened - but the whole point of anything VAR is to pull up something that the referee has seen and got wrong.

He had to slow it down to demonstrate the clear studs up going down his leg. It was a red card all day long and on this occasion VAR actually worked - I can only imagine the frothing at the mouth had the same challenge been on one of our players were it to be left as a yellow....

I think you're absolutely right in fairmess. But why did the ref see a yellow when it was right in front of him? Maybe he felt it was clumsy but not endangering an opponent or violent conduct?
On replay I thought he'd be fortunate to escape. I wish these decisions were judged equally across the league; it seems to me they aren't.

 

[braineclipse]

I think you're absolutely right in fairmess. But why did the ref see a yellow when it was right in front of him? Maybe he felt it was clumsy but not endangering an opponent or violent conduct?
On replay I thought he'd be fortunate to escape. I wish these decisions were judged equally across the league; it seems to me they aren't.

We'll never get away from the human element of decision making and evaluating things in these situations. Obviously there are better and not so good referees and it's seemingly impossible to get a way of doing VAR that ends up working well. But there will imo never be real consistency.

To me it was a bit harsh, but it's the kind of decision we have to accept. Up to to players to not give the ref that decision in the first place.

Hopefully he'll learn.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I think you're absolutely right in fairmess. But why did the ref see a yellow when it was right in front of him? Maybe he felt it was clumsy but not endangering an opponent or violent conduct?
On replay I thought he'd be fortunate to escape. I wish these decisions were judged equally across the league; it seems to me they aren't.

I think you've answered your own question @thfcsteff. When I first watched it, I thought "clumsy tackle, definite yellow". When I watched it back I thought "that's a red in today's game". For the ref, he has a fraction of a second to see it on the pitch so it may not have registered how bad a tackle it was. The replay clearly shows it.

It's a red all day in today's game. Even Xavi seems to have acknowledged that. He can only blame himself, not the ref.

We'd all love consistency but we'll never get it because there is an element of subjectivity on some decisions and refs will see them differently much like Gary Neville and Jamie Redknapp saw Liverpool's second goal very differently despite having a lot of time and replays to come to their differing conclusions. It's frustrating but that's football unfortunately.

 

[Muttley]

It's frustrating but that's football unfortunately.

But you'd never want any honest football stakeholder anywhere to accept it.

I would happily sit down with any pundit or official and call them out on their BS.

At Sky, it is off the scale at this point. It reminds me of Trump and Putin in the way they make out that something that is absolutely wrong to be right for self gain and brand. It's become the scourge of our worldwide society and guys like Neville and Carragher have just loaded on.

 

[DeanoAustin]

But you'd never want any honest football stakeholder anywhere to accept it.

I would happily sit down with any pundit or official and call them out on their BS.

At Sky, it is off the scale at this point. It reminds me of Trump and Putin in the way they make out that something that is absolutely wrong to be right for self gain and brand. It's become the scourge of our worldwide society and guys like Neville and Carragher have just loaded on.

Accept what? There is an element of subjectivity in a lot of these decisions and where you have subjectivity, you'll get different answers depending on who you ask.

Some fans seem to expect perfection but that isn't possible.

I know VAR is a problem is many ways (the long waits, the thought of "fudge, can I celebrate this goal?") and its implementation hasn't been great but it is helping to get more decisions right. People moaned for years about referees missing stuff - they've now improved that with VAR.

 

[Muttley]

Accept what? There is an element of subjectivity in a lot of these decisions and where you have subjectivity, you'll get different answers depending on who you ask.

Some fans seem to expect perfection but that isn't possible.

I know VAR is a problem is many ways (the long waits, the thought of "fudge, can I celebrate this goal?") and its implementation hasn't been great but it is helping to get more decisions right. People moaned for years about referees missing stuff - they've now improved that with VAR.

I think my challenge has always been that VAR has been setup in a way that 80% of decisions are subjective. The "clear and obvious" determination nonsense is the best example of that. In reality at least 80% of decisions are not subjective, but only if your official is only using the laws of the game. Because they don't use the laws, they make more subjective.

I can't remember any football stakeholder in the history of the game ever giving the officials permission to ignore the laws of the game. The entire system break when they stop doing that. What makes it worse is that the commentary and punditry guys are so normalised to the refs not following the laws that they just spout the BS we have to put up with.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I think my challenge has always been that VAR has been setup in a way that 80% of decisions are subjective. The "clear and obvious" determination nonsense is the best example of that. In reality at least 80% of decisions are not subjective, but only if your official is only using the laws of the game. Because they don't use the laws, they make more subjective.

I can't remember any football stakeholder in the history of the game ever giving the officials permission to ignore the laws of the game. The entire system break when they stop doing that. What makes it worse is that the commentary and punditry guys are so normalised to the refs not following the laws that they just spout the BS we have to put up with.

Offsides make up a massive part of the VAR calls and they aren't even slightly subjective. There is a huge amount of subjectivity in a lot of decisions. Bentancur's foul at Saudi Sportswashing Machine? Laughable decision for me but there is an argument they got it right. Second goal on Saturday? Foul all day for me but you have several lads who have played top level football on both sides of the fence. Xavi's red card? Definite IMO but others will argue it wasn't given the intent and where on the pitch it happened.

I'm fed up of people complaining about the refs as if they're responsible for players' and managers' shortcomings. Officials do make mistakes but , for example, do I think 13th is about right for us at the moment? Absolutely.

 

[Muttley]

Offsides make up a massive part of the VAR calls and they aren't even slightly subjective. There is a huge amount of subjectivity in a lot of decisions. Bentancur's foul at Saudi Sportswashing Machine? Laughable decision for me but there is an argument they got it right. Second goal on Saturday? Foul all day for me but you have several lads who have played top level football on both sides of the fence. Xavi's red card? Definite IMO but others will argue it wasn't given the intent and where on the pitch it happened.

I'm fed up of people complaining about the refs as if they're responsible for players' and managers' shortcomings. Officials do make mistakes but , for example, do I think 13th is about right for us at the moment? Absolutely.

I think you have to look at the laws. I'm no expert but I have never read that it matters what part of the pitch we're in. It also doesn't matter which minute of the game we're in. Most decisions that the refs get wrong are the ones not given. Easiest example is when the entire world knows it's a yellow but the ref won't give one. The cumulative effect of that changes football results and also makes football less entertaining.

My beef with PGMOL is that the PL and Sky monopolised refereeing over 20 years ago. They completely weakened the FA's control on officiating as they had control of the budget. Don't know whether you've ever read the history of PGMOL but it was setup to scour the entire football pyramid and create a process of monitoring through the different tiers to make sure the bets officials work at the top. That process is failing based on the quality we see week in, week out. On top of that, you have a cultural issue within the PGMOL organisation where they are not accountable to their stakeholders. I genuinely see better refs at Step 5 than John Brooks in the PL.

 

[Finney Is Back]

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Was VAR in place for that? I could be wrong but I think that was the League Cup game last year and I have some sort of feeling that there was no VAR involved? (though I could well be wrong).

 

[DeanoAustin]

I think you have to look at the laws. I'm no expert but I have never read that it matters what part of the pitch we're in. It also doesn't matter which minute of the game we're in. Most decisions that the refs get wrong are the ones not given. Easiest example is when the entire world knows it's a yellow but the ref won't give one. The cumulative effect of that changes football results and also makes football less entertaining.

My beef with PGMOL is that the PL and Sky monopolised refereeing over 20 years ago. They completely weakened the FA's control on officiating as they had control of the budget. Don't know whether you've ever read the history of PGMOL but it was setup to scour the entire football pyramid and create a process of monitoring through the different tiers to make sure the bets officials work at the top. That process is failing based on the quality we see week in, week out. On top of that, you have a cultural issue within the PGMOL organisation where they are not accountable to their stakeholders. I genuinely see better refs at Step 5 than John Brooks in the PL.

Think you're being harsh.

If you're a ref, I'd assume the natural inclination would be to err on the side of caution for a poor tackle in a non-dangerous area (unless it's a real leg breaker). Likewise, I'd imagine that they're more likely to send someone off later in a game than the first minute. That's because taking those big decisions brings with it a level of scrutiny and criticism if you get it wrong that'd be difficult to deal with. They also get a fraction of a second to see the incident and then make a decision so I'm not surprised that many err on the side of caution - not wanting to ruin a match being watched by 60,000 paying punters and millions around the world. That's just a very natural, human reaction and most of us do it in our own jobs.

The good thing about VAR is that they can pull an incident like Xavi's back and give the ref time and space to see what's actually happened and weigh up the right course of action. That, to me, is a good thing for all the frustrations that VAR brings.

You haven't said it but I do roll my eyes at the accusations of corruption against officials. They sometimes get things wrong - there's no way they are corrupt.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Unfortunately football has become like boxing everything is decided by unaccountable officials and big money, someone said in an earlier post the system of VAR facilitates an opportunity for corruption. There are far too many questionable calls and little consistency.
The media don't care as long as the glory hunters keep paying to hear how great "their" team is and can do no wrong.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Unfortunately football has become like boxing everything is decided by unaccountable officials and big money, someone said in an earlier post the system of VAR facilitates an opportunity for corruption. There are far too many questionable calls and little consistency.
The media don't care as long as the glory hunters keep paying to hear how great "their" team is and can do no wrong.

VAR isn't corrupt. In fact, IMO, it removes the possibility of corruption because a ref now isn't the sole one making the decisions and ridiculous decisions are scrutinised and corrected. In days gone by, corrupt referees could get away with it much easier ("ah sorry, I just missed it").

 

[Muttley]

Think you're being harsh.

If you're a ref, I'd assume the natural inclination would be to err on the side of caution for a poor tackle in a non-dangerous area (unless it's a real leg breaker). Likewise, I'd imagine that they're more likely to send someone off later in a game than the first minute. That's because taking those big decisions brings with it a level of scrutiny and criticism if you get it wrong that'd be difficult to deal with. They also get a fraction of a second to see the incident and then make a decision so I'm not surprised that many err on the side of caution - not wanting to ruin a match being watched by 60,000 paying punters and millions around the world. That's just a very natural, human reaction and most of us do it in our own jobs.

The good thing about VAR is that they can pull an incident like Xavi's back and give the ref time and space to see what's actually happened and weigh up the right course of action. That, to me, is a good thing for all the frustrations that VAR brings.

You haven't said it but I do roll my eyes at the accusations of corruption against officials. They sometimes get things wrong - there's no way they are corrupt.

What you talk about in your first paragraph is why Howard Webb wasn't the right replacement for Mike O'Riley who was absolutely useless. As a referee we all saw that Webb would happily ignore the laws, even when he saw it clearly. Just ask any Spanish fan in 2010. That has now permeated into his team greater than before.

I'm a high tech career guy and I love VAR, the technology. I have more t-shirts than I care to remember about new products, bad implementation, poor change management and most importantly losing sight of what was the original customer requirement. VAR's sole purpose should be to make sure the laws are upheld. It has been mostly great for offside decisions, albeit the laws did say level was onside even the technology didn't cater for it. That was a necessary and understandable trade-off.

I think my biggest challenge with the technology is that it used to see whether the referee has made a "bad enough" decision to overrule it. It is not used to proactively make sure the refs are making the right decisions as much as possible. Simplest example is that in the classic corner vs goal kick protest from the players it take someone at Stockley Park 5 seconds to make sure the right decision is given. There are loads of examples like that where the tech isn't allowed to be used.

None of this really matters though if the number priority of the referees is not to uphold the laws of the game. If it is along the lines of what you say i.e. keeping a watching global audience and stadium happy rather than apply the laws then I'm at a loss. We might as well just take the budget away, shift the refereeing function and employ people who do want to use the laws.

It's interesting that you use the word corruption. Is bias corruption because I do feel we see a lot of unconscious and even conscious bias? That might be the better word as it removes the emotion. Can a referee stay neutral when he or she has 60k fans swaying their decision making and a very partisan Sky commentary and punditry team? Personally, I don't think they do as it's not really a focus of PGMOL in their objectives. Is it even talked about in the official's training?

 

[DeanoAustin]

What you talk about in your first paragraph is why Howard Webb wasn't the right replacement for Mike O'Riley who was absolutely useless. As a referee we all saw that Webb would happily ignore the laws, even when he saw it clearly. Just ask any Spanish fan in 2010. That has now permeated into his team greater than before.

I'm a high tech career guy and I love VAR, the technology. I have more t-shirts than I care to remember about new products, bad implementation, poor change management and most importantly losing sight of what was the original customer requirement. VAR's sole purpose should be to make sure the laws are upheld. It has been mostly great for offside decisions, albeit the laws did say level was onside even the technology didn't cater for it. That was a necessary and understandable trade-off.

I think my biggest challenge with the technology is that it used to see whether the referee has made a "bad enough" decision to overrule it. It is not used to proactively make sure the refs are making the right decisions as much as possible. Simplest example is that in the classic corner vs goal kick protest from the players it take someone at Stockley Park 5 seconds to make sure the right decision is given. There are loads of examples like that where the tech isn't allowed to be used.

None of this really matters though if the number priority of the referees is not to uphold the laws of the game. If it is along the lines of what you say i.e. keeping a watching global audience and stadium happy rather than apply the laws then I'm at a loss. We might as well just take the budget away, shift the refereeing function and employ people who do want to use the laws.

It's interesting that you use the word corruption. Is bias corruption because I do feel we see a lot of unconscious and even conscious bias? That might be the better word as it removes the emotion. Can a referee stay neutral when he or she has 60k fans swaying their decision making and a very partisan Sky commentary and punditry team? Personally, I don't think they do as it's not really a focus of PGMOL in their objectives. Is it even talked about in the official's training?

You're expecting perfection when it's impossible. Some decisions are subjective so it's not a case of reviewing it until you get it right or wrong - there isn't a definitive answer in many cases, just an opinion. See Liverpool's second goal on Saturday. See Bentancur v Saudi Sportswashing Machine.

If we start using VAR for corners, it'll be ridiculous IMO. The game will be slowed down for corners because you'll no longer be able to take a quick corner in some instanes and some of them aren't clear cut and will need multiple views so will take longer than 5 seconds. How about a team just accept the decision and defend the corner.

The officials' job is to uphold the laws of the game and my strong belief is that is what they endeavour to do to the best of their ability. However, the majority of people err on the side of caution when there is uncertainty. Referees are no different because they're people too believe it or not.

 

[Bishop]

Accept what? There is an element of subjectivity in a lot of these decisions and where you have subjectivity, you'll get different answers depending on who you ask.

Some fans seem to expect perfection but that isn't possible.

I know VAR is a problem is many ways (the long waits, the thought of "fudge, can I celebrate this goal?") and its implementation hasn't been great but it is helping to get more decisions right. People moaned for years about referees missing stuff - they've now improved that with VAR.

I agree that there is always a good degree of subjectivity to it which is why for me I was fine with the refs just making a decision on the pitch and we keep it moving. If it went your way then great, if it didn't then so be it.

I'm happy for technology to be used in matters of fact, so offsides, goal line, corners etc, but what constitutes a foul or the severity of the punishment required for a foul will always be subjective and VAR can't change that.

It will always leave some people unsatisfied with any given decision on the day.