The 'If You Still Need to Purge Yourself Of Ange' Thread

[DeanoAustin]

I’ve just read it and I’ve seen bits of it. fudge me. I’ve heard it referred to as an “astonishing rant” and other hyperbole.

Nothing he said is controversial or factually wrong. Some of the subjective stuff I’d dispute but that’s because I’ve got a certain perspective on him and he, naturally, has a very different perspective.

I’m not a fan of Ange as a manager, I went very early on him here. But he’s said nothing that any human being wouldn’t say to defend himself. This was nowhere near Mourinho after we dingdonged United 3-0 or Conte after Southampton.

I sometimes think Ange is a fella who is standing in the middle of a circus wondering if he’s the only sane one. I don’t blame him…the way today was blown out of proportion by the media and swallowed by the public is a head scratcher for me.

And even though I don’t rate him as a manager, I’d be delighted to see him turn it around at Forest.

 

[Robspur12]

I’ve just read it and I’ve seen bits of it. fudge me. I’ve heard it referred to as an “astonishing rant” and other hyperbole.

Nothing he said is controversial or factually wrong. Some of the subjective stuff I’d dispute but that’s because I’ve got a certain perspective on him and he, naturally, has a very different perspective.

I’m not a fan of Ange as a manager, I went very early on him here. But he’s said nothing that any human being wouldn’t say to defend himself. This was nowhere near Mourinho after we dingdonged United 3-0 or Conte after Southampton.

I sometimes think Ange is a fella who is standing in the middle of a circus wondering if he’s the only sane one. I don’t blame him…the way today was blown out of proportion by the media and swallowed by the public is a head scratcher for me.

And even though I don’t rate him as a manager, I’d be delighted to see him turn it around at Forest.

He does seem to bring that circus on himself though. Maybe he could show a bit of humility and perhaps not compare himself to Mourinho or Conte, 2 managers who’ve won the biggest titles in domestic football.

 

[Muttley]

I think he’s perfectly entitled to defend his record and set some things straight when he’s routinely mocked and spoken about like he doesn’t even deserve to be at this level. Despite obvious success that he has had.

I don't.

I think he needs to keep his comms minimal and non-emotional, and let actions speak louder than words. Leaving himself open in this way by these meanderings into previous employments is just downright naive and not helpful to his current employers or his players.

Why does Ange need to break through the 20 min barrier in a presser about a match this weekend? He just needed to state his team news, talk about the Chelsea game and manage a few difficult question in a minimalistic way. That is why he gets paid the big bucks.

Once again he showed just how junior he actually is in this environment.

 

[thfcsteff]

I don't.

I think he needs to keep his comms minimal and non-emotional, and let actions speak louder than words. Leaving himself open in this way by these meanderings into previous employments is just downright naive and not helpful to his current employers or his players.

Why does Ange need to break through the 20 min barrier in a presser about a match this weekend? He just needed to state his team news, talk about the Chelsea game and manage a few difficult question in a minimalistic way. That is why he gets paid the big bucks.

Once again he showed just how junior he actually is in this environment.

Do you believe he has a right to defend himself as he chooses?

 

[Robspur12]

Do you believe he has a right to defend himself as he chooses?

I don’t think he is doing himself any favours by the way he goes about it.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

He does seem to bring that circus on himself though. Perhaps he could show a bit of humility and don’t compare himself to Mourinho or Conte, 2 managers who’ve won the biggest titles in domestic football.

The point he made about both was that they hadn’t been able to win at Spurs where as he had. And that he had won anywhere he had been. Where is he wrong? Like it would be one thing if he said what he said in the Forest presser today, but had actually failed at Spurs, and went on to blame injuries, transfers or whatever. But he literally won something!! He backed up his talk.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I don't.

I think he needs to keep his comms minimal and non-emotional, and let actions speak louder than words. Leaving himself open in this way by these meanderings into previous employments is just downright naive and not helpful to his current employers or his players.

Why does Ange need to break through the 20 min barrier in a presser about a match this weekend? He just needed to state his team news, talk about the Chelsea game and manage a few difficult question in a minimalistic way. That is why he gets paid the big bucks.

Once again he showed just how junior he actually is in this environment.

I’d take the ‘junior in this environment’ point if he had actually failed to win something at Spurs. But he backed up his rhetoric.

I think he felt the need to set some things on the record because once again he’s being talked about like he doesn’t fit here, doesn’t deserve to be here. And he’s done it in a respectful way, offering context. And kindly pushing back on a narrative that was developing. He doesn’t really have anyone in England going to bat for him, but I think his points as it relates to Spurs are fair. And his points on Forest are too, he’s changing a style mid season, with minimal time on the training ground, and results haven’t been good. But 3-4 of those games could have easily been wins given how much they dominated.

Point being, he wouldn’t feel the need to defend himself the way he does if he was treated with a bit more respect. If the narrative was ‘tough start in the job, changing the system but some hugely encouraging signs and bad finishing has taken some wins away, let’s see what he can do.’ That would be one thing. He’s has 7 games…plenty of mangers will go on a winless run like that with much more favourable circumstances and end up just fine. But that’s not his narrative is it? It’s ’huge mistake. Naive, not good enough for this level, junior’ and I think he’s entitled to push back on that.

Who knows whether he’ll succeed there. But Maranakis hired him to evolve the style of football away from Nuno’s. Clearly it’s a challenge. And if there was any nuance applied to analysing anything he does then he wouldn’t need to do pressers like this. Unfortunately he’s fodder for a certain type of punditry, and has no one in the game who is willing to go to bat for him unless he’s winning. So he has to do it himself.

 

[Muttley]

Do you believe he has a right to defend himself as he chooses?

The big irony here is that he didn't even need to defend himself. He was just asked a simple question about talks between himself and the owners during the international break, after a couple of minutes into the presser. He could have said "we talk every day" or "no, we haven't met recently" or he could have said anything professional. Instead, he brought all this attention to his new club by just talking about Spurs and things that were on his mind and nothing to do with the question. I think he walked into that presser with the wrong head on.

 

[Muttley]

I’d take the ‘junior in this environment’ point if he had actually failed to win something at Spurs. But he backed up his rhetoric.

I think he felt the need to set some things on the record because once again he’s being talked about like he doesn’t fit here, doesn’t deserve to be here. And he’s done it in a respectful way, offering context. And kindly pushing back on a narrative that was developing. He doesn’t really have anyone in England going to bat for him, but I think his points as it relates to Spurs are fair. And his points on Forest are too, he’s changing a style mid season, with minimal time on the training ground, and results haven’t been good. But 3-4 of those games could have easily been wins given how much they dominated.

Point being, he wouldn’t feel the need to defend himself the way he does if he was treated with a bit more respect. If the narrative was ‘tough start in the job, changing the system but some hugely encouraging signs and bad finishing has taken some wins away, let’s see what he can do.’ That would be one thing. He’s has 7 games…plenty of mangers will go on a winless run like that with much more favourable circumstances and end up just fine. But that’s not his narrative is it? It’s ’huge mistake. Naive, not good enough for this level, junior’ and I think he’s entitled to push back on that.

Who knows whether he’ll succeed there. But Maranakis hired him to evolve the style of football away from Nuno’s. Clearly it’s a challenge. And if there was any nuance applied to analysing anything he does then he wouldn’t need to do pressers like this. Unfortunately he’s fodder for a certain type of punditry, and has no one in the game who is willing to go to bat for him unless he’s winning. So he has to do it himself.

The "junior" thing is purely about his comms persona in the public environment. It's definitely not his strength.

When you look closely, there was nothing disrespectful in any question from the journo's.

 

[Robspur12]

The point he made about both was that they hadn’t been able to win at Spurs where as he had.

That wasn’t the point he made. He said it was during his first conversations with Levy when the latter had referred to the other two as winners which offended him.

Like it would be one thing if he said what he said in the Forest presser today, but had actually failed at Spurs, and went on to blame injuries, transfers or whatever.

His record last season was our worst ever PL performance in the PL era and that form in the league appears to have carried over to Forest. Instead of showing a litlle bit of humility he’s doubling down on what a great manager he is. Now I hope he turns it around at Forest enough to keep him in a job. But his manner does little to endear him to a lot of fans.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

The big irony here is that he didn't even need to defend himself. He was just asked a simple question about talks between himself and the owners during the international break, after a couple of minutes into the presser. He could have said "we talk every day" or "no, we haven't met recently" or he could have said anything professional. Instead, he brought all this attention to his new club by just talking about Spurs and things that were on his mind and nothing to do with the question. I think he walked into that presser with the wrong head on.

He knew exactly what he was doing, and regardless of the questions asked he was going to say what he said today. I think it’s perfectly reasonable for him to defend his record, because no one else is going to do it for him, and to his point, he is always discussed as if he’s a failed manager that’s lucked into this job, not as someone who has been successful and is 7 games into a transformation from one style to another.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

The "junior" thing is purely about his comms persona in the public environment. It's definitely not his strength.

When you look closely, there was nothing disrespectful in any question from the journo's.

There was nothing disrespectful in the questions, and nothing disrespectful in his response. I’m not really understanding why he’s unable to defend his record. As I said, if the coverage was nuanced, and treated him like someone that actually deserves to be here, he wouldn’t do it. But that’s not what the coverage is. It’s littered with disrespect, as if every achievement is luck or circumstance, and every negative is proof of the fact that he’s lucked out to make it to these shores.

For what it’s worth, I also think that rather than his pressers proving he’s junior, I think it actually builds his aura with the players. If he goes out in front of the press and wilts, the players will sense that he’s not long for this world, that he’s not up to it and they don’t have to take him too seriously. His interview with Emma Saunders, where he said he always wins things in his season season, I am sure had the galvanising impact to the players. I’m not saying it was the sole reason, but for the players to hear that the manager has such belief that something special will happen is a big boost for them in a high pressure environment.

He’s doing a similar thing here. He knows there has been speculation. If he acts like a wallflower who can’t really hack the pressure of Forest, the bad start, what Maranakis might do, then he’s done. His confidence is part of his toolkit. In the same way it was for Jose on a different scale. For Ange, a big part of his coaching is about belief and bravery, and a big part of his system and style is making brave decisions on the ball. You need belief to be able to do that.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

That wasn’t the point he made. He said it was during his first conversations with Levy when the latter had referred to the other two as winners which offended him.


His record last season was our worst ever PL performance in the PL era and that form in the league appears to have carried over to Forest. Instead of showing a litlle bit of humility he’s doubling down on what a great manager he is. Now I hope he turns it around at Forest enough to keep him in a job. But his manner does little to endear him to a lot of fans.

You can see my post above as to why I think he might be ‘doubling down on what a great manager he is’ (heaven forbid a manager back himself in public!) but his point was that Conte and Jose were referred to as winners. And his argument is that he is a winner too. He proved his point correct. I don’t think he is saying specifically that the trophies he won were of equal prestige to the PL or CL, simply that within the context of Tottenham needing to win something, he felt well equipped to deliver on that since he had won everywhere else. And he was proved correct.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Also just to add on Ange.

Iraola had 6 draws and 3 losses in his first 9 games with Bournemouth. He is now spoken of as one of the league’s great disrupters. Most would say deservedly so. Palace started last season with three points from 8 games. But Glasner similarly is seen as a top coach.

A manager starting slow at a new club is not a super rare thing. It happens a lot. Especially when they are implementing a new style and system.

Now…given that we know this, does it feel like the coverage around Ange is fair? A manager who has already gotten 5th with a team that lost their best player and finished 8th the season before? And then won a European trophy the next year? If your answer is no, because he finished 17th last year, then you are making his point for him.

I’m not saying Ange is the best manager ever, or that he’s going to take Forest into the CL. I’m simply saying he deserves respect. Because he hasn’t done anything as yet that means he deserves the disrespect that he does get. And because of that, I think he’s completely justified in defending his approach.

 

[Robspur12]

You can see my post above as to why I think he might be ‘doubling down on what a great manager he is’ (heaven forbid a manager back himself in public!) but his point was that Conte and Jose were referred to as winners. And his argument is that he is a winner too. He proved his point correct. I don’t think he is saying specifically that the trophies he won were of equal prestige to the PL or CL, simply that within the context of Tottenham needing to win something, he felt well equipped to deliver on that since he had won everywhere else. And he was proved correct.

Mate it seems to me you are trying to make up a whole narrative to defend him. I get you like him. Anyway all good I'm out of this discussion.

 

[carl]

It's weird that he talks so much during pressers but goes quiet on the touchline.

Doesnt he get bored of explaining himself all the time? I'm bored of hearing it

 

[DaveT316]

I think people are missing the point slightly when they talk about his right to defend himself. That is perfectly true, but I think my Forest-supporting mate summed it up when we he said Forest fans don’t need or want to hear him spending significant proportion of his press conference reprosecuting his time at another club. If he spent more time talking to them, than he does to the media ie just using the press conferences to defend himself, he could buy himself more time, of which he is in short supply.

In some ways I respect him for not taking any brick from the media, and defending his record, but in others he is so tinned ear and thin skinned as others have said.

Just get on with the job, get the fans onside and take it from there. I feel for him, but he doesn’t half bring things on himself with how he chooses to communicate.

 

[DubSpur]

I’ve just read it and I’ve seen bits of it. fudge me. I’ve heard it referred to as an “astonishing rant” and other hyperbole.

Nothing he said is controversial or factually wrong. Some of the subjective stuff I’d dispute but that’s because I’ve got a certain perspective on him and he, naturally, has a very different perspective.

I’m not a fan of Ange as a manager, I went very early on him here. But he’s said nothing that any human being wouldn’t say to defend himself. This was nowhere near Mourinho after we dingdonged United 3-0 or Conte after Southampton.

I sometimes think Ange is a fella who is standing in the middle of a circus wondering if he’s the only sane one. I don’t blame him…the way today was blown out of proportion by the media and swallowed by the public is a head scratcher for me.

And even though I don’t rate him as a manager, I’d be delighted to see him turn it around at Forest.

There's nothing controversial or factually wrong, but he comes across as thin skinned and emotional. He should concentrate on what is happening now and stop giving the media soundbites. If Frank spent half his time talking about what went on at Brentford I doubt many of our fans would be overly impressed, so I doubt he's doing himself favours with the Forest fans. His interviews here didn't particularly help him either. He could do with some media training, some advice on keeping his answers short and how not to appear so defensive all the time.

 

[glasgowspur]

I don't follow his presses, are the same "journalists" that are doubting his record the same ones asking why he was sacked by levy after winning our first trophy in forever.
The easy headline and click bait of levy is gone, ange is now the go to guy on quiet days.
Ange should ignore them, but I know if I was in his shoes I'd struggle to not defend myself.

 

[Baleforce]

Respect has to be earned, he came out of nowhere 2 years ago, he has to build something somewhere.