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Andre Villas-Boas - Head Coach
- Thread starter Bale
- Start date
thfcsteff
Teddy Sheringham
It's a great appt, an given Ancelotti's unavailability, the one I wanted at 6.05pm after Fulham...it is high time we had someone who doesn't particularly care how they look in the eyes of the media ( and don't be fooled, Redknapps supporters will lurk ready to kick him at the slightest hint of trouble, they're already in there) but thankfully he won't care. He will do his homework, we will practice set-pieces, he I'll evolve Bale to another level and he will not let refs go with brick decisions. Crucially, the vibe between him and Levy is strong. I think he will build a great thing for us, and I think this time next season the doubters will forget they ever doubted...No, this is a great Appt.
I was afraid that the club wouldn't go for it due to his reputation and tough time in the press (indeed, at one point I though Hiddink would've been good if Ahnzi had gone tits up) but am delighted it's not Hiddink and even more delighted AVB got the nod
regardless. True balls. Audere et Facere...
I was afraid that the club wouldn't go for it due to his reputation and tough time in the press (indeed, at one point I though Hiddink would've been good if Ahnzi had gone tits up) but am delighted it's not Hiddink and even more delighted AVB got the nod
regardless. True balls. Audere et Facere...
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DublinSpur
Scott Parker
Couldn't agree more. Lennon is one of our most important players in my view and should definitely be one of the first names on the team sheet when he's fit.
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
hmmmm, i would have thought it obvious.......money and state of football does. if you are a good player, recognized and playing in a decent market , you are going to cost. pretty straightforward .
its when there are question marks over you or politics surrounding your situation or a contractual issue or just you playing in a small market environment...thats when people slip under the radar
why is it a gamble and why cant we just identify players and let the scouting do the business and then all is all sorted and dandy? cause it isnt easy. its spectacularly hard, especially when millions are involved and the tested environment to assess risk to gain ratio (figuratively speaking) hasnt been properly set up. for differing teams and differing aspirations the risk to return allowance varies. big clubs dont take risks, they minimize to be certain of continuous success.......smaller market teams take the bigger ones , generally costing less money and not as worried about the same targets and constraints as the larger teams ..etc etc etc etc etc etce etc bla blah blah
let me ask you, genuine question...if you think its relatively straight forward and basic steps of just saying "what do we need? okay we need this...send the scouts out, we should have it in a few months"..why dont we do this ? why dont we do it all the time? why dont every half decent club do it all the time?
your comments imply or rather insinuate that its very possible to be pedestrian to do. if thats the case i suspect we'll be getting the ingredients we need for a decent price and they have a low risk factor.
AVB potentially up and running come first game in august (assuming he has all his targets available)
SissokoWasGood (BoL)
Terry Venables
We haven't done it because what was Harry looking for before? If we take strikers, ideally someone to play upfront by himself. We eventually got Ade, but before then, there were plenty of strikers around, moving to different clubs, but we were happy with the Defoe/Pav/Crouch/Keane choice. Because he doesn't have a set collection of attributes he looks for, because he had no system of play, it would be pointless for him to make the riskier signings because he'd much rather just play a system that gets the best out of Defoe/Crouch/Pav and adapt in one a game by game basis depending on who is available. Because the riskier signing is not guarenteed to be better than who we had, and thereforwe you may just as easily play to Defoe's strengths as opposed to X new guy.
Now we've got a head coach in place that plays to a system and will likely be implementing it from the academy upwards, I imagine we'll be doing this for the type of player we are looking at all the time.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Sorry mate but I think thats completely wrong. Good strikers get brought for reasonable money and are successfull quite frequently. The fee is irrelevant to their quality.
I appreciate it can be felt there is an element of a gamble to it, with for example Jelavic - doing the business in Scotland but could he do it in England? But that is where your scouting comes in. David Moyes knew the player, he had watched him countless times and knew exactly what he was capable of. He knew it wasnt a gamble, but a good deal. 10 games (+ 3 sub), 9 goals and 1 assist later, how does that £5m fee look? He even shifted premiership proven Saha (1 in 3 strike rate iirc) to make room for him (in the squad and for wages).
They key to this (and one of my issues with Redknapp) is knowing how your team play, and therefore knowing what you need. This is what Moyes understood when looking for the player. It is, I believe, something AVB will understand as well.
The other thing is to look at the likes of Berbatov or Ba - thee guys all came reasonably priced and were already performing in a quality league - its not like they were as risky as taking Hernandez from Mexico.
So many things affect a players price, its no guide of quality.
If we have a system of play we know what we need. If we know what we need we know what to look for. If we know what to look for we will know it when we see it. If we find options then we can weigh up which are the best deals.
Will make you laugh, but the other week I suggested Fletcher at wolves as a good option for the squad. Basically got laughed at for it but I tell you what, he is a strong player, has good technique, knows where the goal is and has very sharp movement. He is playing at Wolves, probably cheap and is going a bit bald so obviously he isnt good enough - right? Wrong, IMO. Knowing what you need lets you see it...
I appreciate it can be felt there is an element of a gamble to it, with for example Jelavic - doing the business in Scotland but could he do it in England? But that is where your scouting comes in. David Moyes knew the player, he had watched him countless times and knew exactly what he was capable of. He knew it wasnt a gamble, but a good deal. 10 games (+ 3 sub), 9 goals and 1 assist later, how does that £5m fee look? He even shifted premiership proven Saha (1 in 3 strike rate iirc) to make room for him (in the squad and for wages).
They key to this (and one of my issues with Redknapp) is knowing how your team play, and therefore knowing what you need. This is what Moyes understood when looking for the player. It is, I believe, something AVB will understand as well.
The other thing is to look at the likes of Berbatov or Ba - thee guys all came reasonably priced and were already performing in a quality league - its not like they were as risky as taking Hernandez from Mexico.
So many things affect a players price, its no guide of quality.
If we have a system of play we know what we need. If we know what we need we know what to look for. If we know what to look for we will know it when we see it. If we find options then we can weigh up which are the best deals.
Will make you laugh, but the other week I suggested Fletcher at wolves as a good option for the squad. Basically got laughed at for it but I tell you what, he is a strong player, has good technique, knows where the goal is and has very sharp movement. He is playing at Wolves, probably cheap and is going a bit bald so obviously he isnt good enough - right? Wrong, IMO. Knowing what you need lets you see it...
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
you're pointing the finger at harry now ? for not being able to sign a striker?
for one of the two posters i've known to employ the "what if""maybe" or "why" comments i have to say that the bit in bold is incredibly presumptive. i could say that you have no idea if that was the case but i can respect a man has a right to form an opinion based on what he sees, experiences and just has an outright gut feeling
strikers might have been moving around all over the place but i dont know which of them were available to us with our financial constraints and as minimal a risk factor as deemed by the board and their objectives necessary to acheive said boards goals
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
bro we will have to agree to disagree here
its a gamble from my perspective and one that fit into the constraints and targets of everton and not us. differing clubs have differing targets and such the risk to gain factor is based on what your aims are , where your team is , and where you want to gob realistically, and if it fits your budget you make your move. you think if everton had a chance at ade that they would go for jelavic instead ? not for me.we play in a bigger arena , make bigger deals for players that have a lower risk factor. everton take bigger risks and bigger gambles. you're the guy that said that moyes doesnt have that great of an eye for spotting talent , yet now its relatively easy for him to identify players at a whim when it runs concurrently with the point you try to make. so moyes aint that bad in the transfer market then Huh? wink wink
i dont think i have much issue here with these comments, and i do believe them....but again...i dont think that harry had the backing from levy. i really dont. you're basically IMO basing his ability to talent spot (which harry is pretty good at btw) on a lack of support from the board , or at least what i perceive as a lack of support
The other thing is to look at the likes of Berbatov or Ba - thee guys all came reasonably priced and were already performing in a quality league - its not like they were as risky as taking Hernandez from Mexico.
yeah i'm pretty sure i mentioned this in the people that slip through the cracks. berbatov had a release clause and ba has got a bum knee that needs regular maintenance , not to mention that ba played in a smaller market than anyone that plays in the premiership
agreed on the first part, again something i have mentioned the first time round. and definately agreed on the second part BUT if you are a good player , thats recognised, in a big market..then you are going to cost. there are things that limit these things, as i mentioned before....contract, health, the market you play in within the league market, politics, heck even a players character will affect it. But the concensus is this...good player, tried and tested, in good market enviroment will cost
dude you make it seems so simple and yet teams struggle all over the place to get that starting 11 that will win them things. go figure. you have to ask yourself why it isnt easier then for anyone to put together a team that will compete with lietarlly everyone
i am not entirely sure why this would make me laugh . i actually would advocate both fletcher and jarvis for our squad.
to an extent i would even advocate fletcher for the starting 11 dependent on who surrounds him..BUT he is just a decent striker, he isnt the guy i would rely on to take the world by storm..as such i set the sights higher.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
You disagree that good strikers are brought for reasonable fees and are successful? Im really not sure how you can to be honest mate, its a stone cold fact - there is a list just a few posts up!
I suspect you are deliberately baiting me again buddy
You know full well I doubt Moyes ability to spend big money. At more modest fees I think he is bloody good.Aside from that I just dont buy the whole scenario you are constructing there, I think you are vastly over complicating the matter. Jelavic, as was the example, would come up on our radar because he is to cheap? Only more expensive players are good enough? Sorry mate. A good player is a good player regardless of where he is or how much he costs. Look at Berbatov, £6m apparently and a Rolls Royce of a player - not good enough because he is "only" £6m? Doesnt meet our requirments because of that? You talk of risk factors - Jelavic at £5m is a low risk move for us! And I bet he would have been bloody good for us too.
I suspect you are talking about risk more in an "assurance of quality" kind of way, but again - thats for you and your scouts to decide not the players price tag.
Im certainly not having a go at Harrys ability to spot talent, Im very confident he knows a good player and its unfair of me if Ive given you the impression otherwise. I was more criticising his lack of ability to know what he wants. Without a structured style of play his transfer targets were more.... vague? opportunistic? He would know broadly what he wanted but not specifically (IMO).
This is why I suspect he didnt have the full backing of the board. Levy wants a plan, he wants a target - he wants to know how it works... Harry went more by gut instinct...
To slip through the cracks suggests there are few in number, the list above is just from this country and just the last couple of seasons - it suggests its a little more frequent that that. And if it is more frequent its not the anomoly you make it out to be.
A FAMOUS player will cost. A GOOD player need not, if you get to him before his star rises. A Good player is still a good player before he has proven himself at a big club...
It is simple. That doesnt mean its easy though, just that it isnt complicated.
I believe the task is made infinitely easier if you know EXACTLY what you need. Look at all the talk lately of SWEEPER KEEPER, some seem to find it funny but its a great example - look at Rodgers getting Vorm.
Vorm was a nobody keeper in the Dutch league - not someone ever talked about on here for sure and Ive never seen him linked to anyone here either.
Rodgers KNOWS he wanted a keeper comfortable in possession able to pass the ball out from the back. Because he was very specific in what he wanted he found an unknown keeper in the Dutch league - would Harry have even considered Vorm if we needed a keeper?
Because Rodgers knew what he wanted he found him, and when he brought him it was a low risk move because he had investigated the player fully. IMHO Vorm proved to be one of the players of the season last year.
Plenty did laugh, you are one of a few who havent. My point was that he could certainly play in our team to very good effect. As a squad player I bet he might only cost £5-6m, a bargain on our budget, and yet mention it and far to many write it off because he is "just a Wolves player" or some such. My point was only to illustrate that a good player is defined by being a good player, not by their value, not by their current club or by the league they play in...
inkpenspur
Allan Nielsen
183. At 13:47 4th Jul 2012, Government_Needs_To_Man-up wrote:
Iam quite frankly sick of countless comments from fans of other clubs who did not follow Chelsea enough last year to comment, saying it was the dressing room that got AVB sacked!
1. His team sleections were all wrong, playing mereiels and ramires at cdm, and bosingwa all the time at right back and even left back sometimes!
2. His substitutions were poor, he would often take off Mata when we needed a goal and bring on Malouda far too many times. His subs never made a positive impact on the game.
3. He never gave the youth a chance, loaned out Mceachran who in my opinion should have played regurlaly instead of Mereiles. Played Bosingwa as back up lft back to Cole and never gave Bertrand a chnce (who excelled under RDM).
4. He was simply incapable of organising a defense.
5. His signings were awful, if you are going to fork out £20 mil on Lukaku at least play him or loan him out instead of using him to warm the bench. Without Juan Mata last season we would have finished in the bottom half of the table, because he brought in players that were too young to make an immediate impact (Davila). And the less said about the signing of Mereiles the better (who is 29) and was played put of position for the much of last year.
RDM was not lucky he just simply got the basics right, which AVB failed to do, overall his reign as Chelsea boss could be described as chaotic and he was like a bull in a china shop when dealing with the media. If he is to succeed at Spurs he must learn from the long list of mistakes he made at Chelsea. (from BBC)
I guess this guy is not an AVB supporter then?
:
Iam quite frankly sick of countless comments from fans of other clubs who did not follow Chelsea enough last year to comment, saying it was the dressing room that got AVB sacked!
1. His team sleections were all wrong, playing mereiels and ramires at cdm, and bosingwa all the time at right back and even left back sometimes!
2. His substitutions were poor, he would often take off Mata when we needed a goal and bring on Malouda far too many times. His subs never made a positive impact on the game.
3. He never gave the youth a chance, loaned out Mceachran who in my opinion should have played regurlaly instead of Mereiles. Played Bosingwa as back up lft back to Cole and never gave Bertrand a chnce (who excelled under RDM).
4. He was simply incapable of organising a defense.
5. His signings were awful, if you are going to fork out £20 mil on Lukaku at least play him or loan him out instead of using him to warm the bench. Without Juan Mata last season we would have finished in the bottom half of the table, because he brought in players that were too young to make an immediate impact (Davila). And the less said about the signing of Mereiles the better (who is 29) and was played put of position for the much of last year.
RDM was not lucky he just simply got the basics right, which AVB failed to do, overall his reign as Chelsea boss could be described as chaotic and he was like a bull in a china shop when dealing with the media. If he is to succeed at Spurs he must learn from the long list of mistakes he made at Chelsea. (from BBC)
I guess this guy is not an AVB supporter then?
:The Moonlit Knight
Banned
What are your expectations for the coming season?
The Moonlit Knight
Banned
I find it quite amusing that everyone believes AVB is in this for the long term.
1) After Chelsea he now surely knows there is no such thing as long termism in football. There should be no building for the future, and all efforts have to be put into the now. If he does that, then the future will take care of itself.
2) Realistically he must know the chances of winning the Premiership or Champion's League are slim with Spurs. So slim they're anorexic! Basically, he is an ambitious man. He can't afford a long term vision for the club, he is a man in a hurry and Spurs could prove to be his perfect stepping stone to a bigger and better opportunity.
3) He is young, very young and doesn't have the experience to run a club from top to bottom. I personally hope he focuses all his energy on the first team.
Success or failure, I'll stick my neck on the block and say that AVB will not be our Head Coach/Manager in July 2016. He probably won't even be it in July 2015....
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
no, i disagree that i am completely wrong. i disagree that good strikers are boutght for reasonable price FREQUENTLY, especially in this league and especially if they are actually really good and risk certified (which is where we would operate). and i disagree that that fee is irrelevant to quality. i think they are closely correlated. not absolute , but very high correlation.
I suspect you are deliberately baiting me again buddy
hands in the air. its amazing you can spot that so quickly though. need to be more sly
A
this is the kind of thing that drags discussions out....its the leap from what i said to what you said "jelavic wasnt on our radar cause he was cheap but only expensive strikers come on our radar. i can categorically state thats not what i was saying. and i thought what i was saying would have come through better. jelavic had a higher risk factor for success, more so than ade, combine all the stuff i mentioned at least 4 or 5 times which for some reason isnt sticking in my comments...but jelavic was not a recognised name , he wasnt a playing in a big market league...(though he was in a big market team)....he wasnt put in an enviroment that could pretty much show that he would succeed in the better league....etc etc etc etc etc etc...there are quite a few things...but all these things will affect your price. tottenham dont deal in high risk factor situations if their aim to to succeed NOW. we make bigger deals because we engage in lower risk factor individuals, people that are more tried and tested, or are recognised talents etc etc etc etc. thats what makes the deal bigger. we dont think ..."hey this guy is cheap. forget him...but this dude is overpriced...let get him instead" no..nothing of the sort. and we especialy dont dp that for the first team in relation to the level of the squad talent. we try to get guys that we want that we have a higher certainty will do well now or at some point in the near future. to assess this there are LOTS of things to consider. it isnt easy...infact a while ago Cule spur invited me to a seminar that was focused on "A model How to asses or identify the good footballer"...high end stuff (i didnt go though). go tell those academics they are wasting their time with all those stats and variables
even someone's nationality can affect price actually. in conjuunction with all the other variables and factors out there
yes this is much closer to what i am talking about, the liklehood of a player to succeed in your team.
now here is the thing, to assess assurance of quality there are alot of things a player has to go through before you think "he is the one" its not just .."lets see how fast he can ru, how hard he can kick"...they will take it right down to the coaches report about the players character and mental toughness etc etc. true, if you can find etoo for 2 pence, then you get him. but etoo at this stage for tottenham will show all the physical and raw skill needed and he would have been tested in a various number of situations AND would have impressed..then the price starts to go up once this is shown....and even after all that there is still a risk associated with the fact that he probably hasnt been tested against the better players in a top league. then you make a decision...spend MILLIONS on a relatively talented unknown showing some serious ability in a weak african league? or try and get the talented footballer playing in a middle market club in a big market league? Wiagn and newcatle will sign etoo, we will odds on pass and try and get negredo
maybe he knows what he wants and he isnt backed? he kept saying that he had no money to spend..so he had to do deals.
yeah, i dont know. you back your manager if you want to. and i doubt harry is indecisive..i think he would have known what he wanted. just that levy and him might have clashed in interests is as far as i will go
i am talking about in this country though.....your comparing a 10million pound spend here to a 10 million pound spend in somewhere like germany or holland? pound for pound equality? Are you working for Barclays by any chance *ahem ahem* fixing rates cough cough. this is primarily in england i am talking about. good players move around for what we woudl consider cheap but over in the leagues they play in its real mula. but here is the thing..if the league they play in is a big market league then they will STILL cost an arm and a leg in proportion to whatever league they play in.
Its like comparing me trying to buy a house to say 250,000...to me thats like the cosmos...to a sultan? toilet paper. the sultan wont buy that house unless its tested as bullet proof...i get beef with my neighbour he uzi's my house and my house just bounces off the bullets..the sultan is like i want that house...and i'm like "heeeeeeeey, the sultan wants MY house? 2 million bitch!!!"
no one is denying this, but the good player is still more of a risk than the famous good player who i am guessing is famous cause he has played in a big market somewhere in a big competition of some sort and proven what he could do, more so than the good player that hasnt had that opportunity
i believe it is, in big business football it is. look how long it took for us to make a move on sandro? and he cost us 10 or 12 million anyway.
yes people find it funny, i just let them laugh. i've read literature referencing a keeper being employed as a sweeper though i never went into it. know very little of the intricacies of it. but it exists and its there.
and guess what happened? the nobody keeper actually went for cheap to a low market arena..proved himself and then now he is courted by big market franchises. See!!! alot of the time your talent isnt the issue..its exposure and its the targets and aims of the buyer. there is soo much stuff that goes into identifying a transfer and to cut down the chances of error people that are speculating big will get resources that they have the best guarantee of success
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
and guess what happened? the nobody keeper actually went for cheap to a low market arena..proved himself and then now he is courted by big market franchises. See!!! alot of the time your talent isnt the issue..its exposure and its the targets and aims of the buyer. there is soo much stuff that goes into identifying a transfer and to cut down the chances of error people that are speculating big will get resources that they have the best guarantee of success
probably not in harry's case...he would have gone for a tried and tested keepr. i wont blame him for not callously throwing money around on risky purchases, not when levy probably wants success NOW. wenger has been looking for a keeper..why didnt he get him? or alex? or anyone in the top half of the prem....or even in the premiership
B
it was a low risk move for RODGERS and for SWANSEA..they can afford to risk money on someone that isnt yet proven on a bigger stage. infact that IS what they do. how do you explain then when wenger gets it wrong? ferguson? you telling me these people dont know what they want? of course they do, but nothing is made of gold and players fail ALOT more than they succeed when teams make a purchase (actually thats a lazy comment..success and failure is in the eye of the targets of the respective clubs
like i said, it wouldnt bother me and i know it doesnt bother you. let people laugh. naija will vouch for me that i do rate jarvis and fletcher
now get this, fletcher is a good player but he had to play in wolves and do okay..before people considered..."he could be good with us too".
there are good players out there who are just not given the chance, the settings and the exposure to really show they can hang.
okay, what are the chances that the person we end up buying for our striker position is a sub 10 million pound player, with no contractual clauses, no health issues, does not play in a big market league or in a big market team, isnt recognised significantly on some level and hasnt been battle tested in a an aggressive and high pressure situation on a fairly regular basis?
for me it is SLIM
SissokoWasGood (BoL)
Terry Venables
Only pointing by saying he has a different policy, not in a bad way. But yes, I would say it was down to Harry. Because for him, to sign improvements means they have to be absolutely nailed on, proven quality in order to bring them in. 'I tried to sign Balotelli', 'I asked the chairman 'Can you get me Carlos Tevez?' he never considered singing anyone that could fit into a particular style of play and go for the 'value signing' because he had no set style of play. Not necessarily a bad thing, he just adapted to each player when they played. But that meant it would be harder to make improvements because why would he sign unproven guy from Germany or Scotland when he already has Defoe? It wouldn't actually be a step up in his mind.
But if we have a system where he knows what he wants, he can maybe find someone with the attributes, rather than the record. Why was there no back up for Lennon? No need, we have Niko, who's a triffic player. No matter that we look most dangerous when we break and attack with pace and get teams on the back foot, we had to completely alter our style of play.
You talk of risk, and say Everton have to take more risks than us, but equally, we have to take more risks than people with better finances than us. If we don't, then we will always be waiting around the same level below them, until our own finances get on the same level. But that means we will keep not making improvements until they are absolutely guaranteed. We didn't buy any strikers because there was no obvious, sure-fire improvement available for a price we can afford. But I'm absolutely certain we will sign strikers/wing forwards under AVB and they won't all be 15M+ plus players. It can be done. But if we don't have a system of play, we simply judge improvements by tier of quality. So Defoe is proven Premier League quality, but we'd need someone proven CL quality to improve on him...without finances that isn't happening unless a seriously good deal presents itself. Or we have a system, we sign the right players, and we should be good. And there is value to be found because the players with the attributes we need will be out there, but maybe they aren't being used in a way that we would use them right now, and that's where we can make them perform better. Wenger's early signings are a great example.
It doesn't mean that every signing that is brought in for 'the system' will be a sure-fire success, but we will at least be aiming towards it. Things like mentality, injuries, ability to settle into the culture and style of the league will all be important. But if we are looking for specific attributes, we will definitely be able to make more value signings, and that seems to be exactly what Levy was looking for. I get the feeling you are annoyed Harry is gone and aren't really happy with AVB, but really I don't know how it can be argued that there aren't value signings to be made out there. All clubs do it. Harry's way was ok - if we have the finances of a top 6 club, he will buy players of a top 6 quality and put us in the top 6. But if we want to go further, we need to take some 'risks'. Swansea have the finances of a Championship club, but got to safe mid-table. We need to do the higher table equivalent. Not easy but there is value there.