Cheating in sport

[Grays_1890]

Group of mates having a chat on WhatsApp about the who wants to be a millionaire cheat and if there is a difference in cheating a quiz to win money or diving in a final that has a financial windfall. Anyway from that we were trying to compare diving in football to other forms of cheating in sport and struggled to compare any form of cheating let alone the acceptance. Closest we can was ball tampering in cricket which does not guarantee an outcome but comes with a hefty fine if found out, where as you can win a World Cup with a dive but no retrospective punishment exists.

So do we stupidly accept diving as part of the game where other sports wouldn’t stand for it? Is it more important for the game to move forward blindly than to act on things that are wrong?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Group of mates having a chat on WhatsApp about the who wants to be a millionaire cheat and if there is a difference in cheating a quiz to win money or diving in a final that has a financial windfall. Anyway from that we were trying to compare diving in football to other forms of cheating in sport and struggled to compare any form of cheating let alone the acceptance. Closest we can was ball tampering in cricket which does not guarantee an outcome but comes with a hefty fine if found out, where as you can win a World Cup with a dive but no retrospective punishment exists.

So do we stupidly accept diving as part of the game where other sports wouldn’t stand for it? Is it more important for the game to move forward blindly than to act on things that are wrong?

Boxing has plenty of cheating tricks but their accepted... thinking use of the head when making contact in close quarters and punching late or low

in rugby the cheating is in the pack or also in tackling in certain ways which their out lawing but still struggle to consistently referee

Formula 1 has constant things being changed to stop cheating

and of course there’s cycling and Atletics amongst others with drug cheats

 

[Grays_1890]

Boxing has plenty of cheating tricks but their accepted... thinking use of the head when making contact in close quarters and punching late or low

in rugby the cheating is in the pack or also in tackling in certain ways which their out lawing but still struggle to consistently referee

Formula 1 has constant things being changed to stop cheating

and of course there’s cycling and Atletics amongst others with drug cheats

Good points but that would leads to the argue that in all where rewards are almost fraudulently won with cheating the punishments are hefty especially if they manipulate the results of major events.

For example Cheating is rife in athletics but it’s not accepted as it is In football.

When Henry robbed Ireland of a place with his handball football shrugged its shoulders. Dean Richards got a 2/3 year ban for manipulating subs in rugby.

 

[Baleforce]

Good points but that would leads to the argue that in all where rewards are almost fraudulently won with cheating the punishments are hefty especially if they manipulate the results of major events.

For example Cheating is rife in athletics but it’s not accepted as it is In football.

When Henry robbed Ireland of a place with his handball football shrugged its shoulders. Dean Richards got a 2/3 year ban for manipulating subs in rugby.

Yet your average rugby player makes Lance Armstrong's doping seem like teenage experimentation.

Different sports accept different levels of different things, another example, you can't grunt in tennis, but you can work with Dr Michele Ferrari.

Popularity means more money which inevitably leads to cheating, I don't blame the participants so much, the system encourages it, are you really a professional sportsperson if you are not doing everything in your power to win.

Also, if the laws of a sport have a restriction, with a specified sanction, it doesn't mean you can't do it, it just means there is a precedented price for doing so.

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

False starts, maybe, in athletics and in horsie racing. There's a certain potential for unfair advantage.

 

[Kandi1977]

False starts, maybe, in athletics and in horsie racing. There's a certain potential for unfair advantage.

False starts? It's electronically measured in the starting blocks. Reaction time of less than 0.1 seconds is automatically a false start.

 

[fernadez]

Good points but that would leads to the argue that in all where rewards are almost fraudulently won with cheating the punishments are hefty especially if they manipulate the results of major events.

For example Cheating is rife in athletics but it’s not accepted as it is In football.

When Henry robbed Ireland of a place with his handball football shrugged its shoulders. Dean Richards got a 2/3 year ban for manipulating subs in rugby.

Cheating in athletics not accepted? If anything it's the other way round surely. Track and field is basically who can shoot up the best. Get caught? Here's a 2 year ban them you're back in the game. Miss a drugs test? No problem you can still compete cause your training camp was so remote nobody could make it. Athletes routinely miss drugs tests and face no repercussions.

This is before you start getting into Nike and thier influence on the sport.

 

[Grays_1890]

Cheating in athletics not accepted? If anything it's the other way round surely. Track and field is basically who can shoot up the best. Get caught? Here's a 2 year ban them you're back in the game. Miss a drugs test? No problem you can still compete cause your training camp was so remote nobody could make it. Athletes routinely miss drugs tests and face no repercussions.

This is before you start getting into Nike and thier influence on the sport.

That’s not accurate though sorry

 

[Wilheldiva]

Group of mates having a chat on WhatsApp about the who wants to be a millionaire cheat and if there is a difference in cheating a quiz to win money or diving in a final that has a financial windfall. Anyway from that we were trying to compare diving in football to other forms of cheating in sport and struggled to compare any form of cheating let alone the acceptance. Closest we can was ball tampering in cricket which does not guarantee an outcome but comes with a hefty fine if found out, where as you can win a World Cup with a dive but no retrospective punishment exists.

So do we stupidly accept diving as part of the game where other sports wouldn’t stand for it? Is it more important for the game to move forward blindly than to act on things that are wrong?

i think its just the case that each sport has its own moral code, and accepts certain types of "cheating" and not others. and this differs from sport to sport.

responding to your question as to whether we stupidly accept diving, i don't think that's phrased "fairly". theres plently more forms of cheating that are even more accepted than diving in football such as tugs or pushes etc, and other forms that arent accepted whilst they would be in other sports (ie. assault in rugby). in short, it is what is it. if you want a clear moral boundary, i think it has to come from yourself - theres simply going to be too many varying views between different people. personally, in football, i think anything goes as long as you aren't trying to physically hurt your opposition - i think this is the only moral position you can consistently hold in football without contradicting yourself (and without drastically changing how the game is played) ie. i dont see how anyone can hold the position that diving is wrong, but then attempt to justify shirt pulling or professional fouls.

and in other sports, i play by a different set of moral boundaries. for example, in chess, playing by anything other than the letter of the rules would be wrong.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Cheating at anything goes against the whole sporting principle but unfortunately most people are morally bankrup and can't see that they are achieving hollow victories. Everyone considers it as acting "professionally" a poor excuse for not being good enough to win on your own ability.

 

[Baleforce]

i think its just the case that each sport has its own moral code, and accepts certain types of "cheating" and not others. and this differs from sport to sport.

responding to your question as to whether we stupidly accept diving, i don't think that's phrased "fairly". theres plently more forms of cheating that are even more accepted than diving in football such as tugs or pushes etc, and other forms that arent accepted whilst they would be in other sports (ie. assault in rugby). in short, it is what is it. if you want a clear moral boundary, i think it has to come from yourself - theres simply going to be too many varying views between different people. personally, in football, i think anything goes as long as you aren't trying to physically hurt your opposition - i think this is the only moral position you can consistently hold in football without contradicting yourself (and without drastically changing how the game is played) ie. i dont see how anyone can hold the position that diving is wrong, but then attempt to justify shirt pulling or professional fouls.

and in other sports, i play by a different set of moral boundaries. for example, in chess, playing by anything other than the letter of the rules would be wrong.

Cheating at anything goes against the whole sporting principle but unfortunately most people are morally bankrup and can't see that they are achieving hollow victories. Everyone considers it as acting "professionally" a poor excuse for not being good enough to win on your own ability.

when I'm not on lockdown I play 5-a-side every week, I never cheat, I sometimes foul people due to incompetence but it's never intentional, it's because I'm playing sport for fun

professional sport is different, it's not being done for fun, it's being done to win, it's business, morals and ethics be damned

 

[Wilheldiva]

Cheating at anything goes against the whole sporting principle but unfortunately most people are morally bankrup and can't see that they are achieving hollow victories. Everyone considers it as acting "professionally" a poor excuse for not being good enough to win on your own ability.

theres definitely merit in this argument, however if you play to this (however moral the stance is), you simply will not be competitive in most sports, both at an amateur and professional level.

- had cyclists not doped during the armstrong era, they may have been praiseworthy, but they certainly wouldnt have won and no-one would have even heard of them to praise them.
- in football, if you refuse to pull the odd shirt, and nudge players here and there, you wont be playing at a very high level even as an amateur.

essentially you can either choose not to participate in sports or be a badminton player (as mourinho once put it )

 

[Wilheldiva]

when I'm not on lockdown I play 5-a-side every week, I never cheat, I sometimes foul people due to incompetence but it's never intentional, it's because I'm playing sport for fun

herein lies the debate. you know you're incompetent (not refering specifically to you, but players in general), but yet you put in a tackle that you know runs a chance of being a foul. in football, this would not count as cheating (general consensus), but in other sports and other walks of life in general it would certainly count as "cheating".

 

[Spur of the moment]

The prizes for success are so enormous nowadays you pretty much HAVE to be good at cheating as well as playing the game in order to win trophies. In that respect football has become a game of who cheats wins.

Whether that's flouting FFP, tactical fouling, deliberate handball, shirt-pulling, diving, deliberate time-wasting, spying or just plain thuggery, it all comes down to the same thing. We're no saints of course, but I cling to the to belief we're not as unprincipled either.

It's why I no longer prize trophies quite as highly as many seem to. Fool's gold, Pyrrhic victories and all that.

Just enjoy the game for what it is and let go of the rest.

 

[Baleforce]

herein lies the debate. you know you're incompetent (not refering specifically to you, but players in general), but yet you put in a tackle that you know runs a chance of being a foul. in football, this would not count as cheating (general consensus), but in other sports and other walks of life in general it would certainly count as "cheating".

no, I put in a tackle in full confidence that I'm going to do so cleanly

I'm often mistaken

 

[Wilheldiva]

no, I put in a tackle in full confidence that I'm going to do so cleanly

I'm often mistaken

there should definitely be a yellow card for such level of stupidity in that case

 

[Wilheldiva]

The prizes for success are so enormous nowadays you pretty much HAVE to be good at cheating as well as playing the game in order to win trophies. In that respect football has become a game of who cheats wins.

Whether that's flouting FFP, tactical fouling, deliberate handball, shirt-pulling, diving, deliberate time-wasting, spying or just plain thuggery, it all comes down to the same thing. We're no saints of course, but I cling to the to belief we're not as unprincipled either.

It's why I no longer prize trophies quite as highly as many seem to. Fool's gold, Pyrrhic victories and all that.

Just enjoy the game for what it is and let go of the rest.

yeah i agree with your last sentence.

if you really think about it, even beyond the cheating, what is there to really enjoy with winning trophies? we all know that the teams that win are the ones that have spent the most... of the owner's money, and not yours personally, so the pride of winning should really fall to the owner only in this case. the players are rarely local, and live in a completely different economic landscape to the average fan, and so theres v.little relatability and kindship there. the relationship with the club and fans are getting more distant every year - ie. ticket price increases making us becoming customers rather than fans. its a funny old game

 

[Baleforce]

yeah i agree with your last sentence.

if you really think about it, even beyond the cheating, what is there to really enjoy with winning trophies? we all know that the teams that win are the ones that have spent the most... of the owner's money, and not yours personally, so the pride of winning should really fall to the owner only in this case. the players are rarely local, and live in a completely different economic landscape to the average fan, and so theres v.little relatability and kindship there. the relationship with the club and fans are getting more distant every year - ie. ticket price increases making us becoming customers rather than fans. its a funny old game

I agree with all that, but I don't see it as necessarily a bad thing, there is more to it that money at the pitch level, application and tactics are still massively relevant, it's possible to spend a lot of money badly.

Technically, the game is advanced as ever, would I like to see a lesser game that I had a closer attachment too, absolutely not, I want to see where it can go.

 

[fernadez]

That’s not accurate though sorry

Ohuruogu - 3 missed tests was it?
Gatlin - positive for amphetamines
Mo - said he did not hear doorbell when testers visited
Coleman - missed 2 drugs test
Radcliffe getting that Nike contract than turning into PR for Salazar.

That's just off the top of my head. What's the point of banning people and letting them back in, that is not a deterrent. Missing 1 drugs test maybe, missing the second should be a lifetime ban.

 

[Grays_1890]

Ohuruogu - 3 missed tests was it?
Gatlin - positive for amphetamines
Mo - said he did not hear doorbell when testers visited
Coleman - missed 2 drugs test
Radcliffe getting that Nike contract than turning into PR for Salazar.

That's just off the top of my head. What's the point of banning people and letting them back in, that is not a deterrent. Missing 1 drugs test maybe, missing the second should be a lifetime ban.

But if you are actively caught doped up and win a medal you are stripped, you can dive to win a pen and a World Cup and you won’t be stripped even though it’s cheating