Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Gilzeantoscore]

You haven't outlined anything you would like to see happen in the UK. There is nothing you want to happen in the UK, Brexit is solely about a fear of the EU and avoiding its "dictotorial" menace? Can you outline what it is that the EU dictates to us? An example of what it imposes on you or us which upsets you? Something we experience day to day ideally.

What is wrong with trading with Africa? What do you find upsetting about it?

No point arguing with this clown shoe. Right Wing Nut Job Alert! He wont come out and say it outright, but he's hinting at the International Jewish, Marxist conspiracy. Well I guess these types provide Glory - Glory with it's shape and colour

 

[DTA]

And Im starting to fear they will get it.




de ja vu, isnt it?

Theyve shown we are worth more to them than they let on previously, its about time we grew a pair.

How so?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Extension after extension.

Previously it was a hard line "we'll let you hang yourselves", now its come to it they are backing off real fast to try and keep things in their favour.

suddenly their resolve has waned because they didnt expect us to actually do it, the bluff has been called.

 

[DTA]

Extension after extension.

Previously it was a hard line "we'll let you hang yourselves", now its come to it they are backing off real fast to try and keep things in their favour.

suddenly their resolve has waned because they didnt expect us to actually do it, the bluff has been called.

Um no. The extensions are there to prevent no deal Brexit. Which would be damaging to them... But much more damaging to us.

I did say to you at the start they would not agree a deal that crossed their Red lines and they haven't. Any deal will be worse than membership, which has been proved correct.

They are granting extension because we are asking for them... If we stop asking for them... No more extensions.

Any chance of playing hardball left with triggering Art50 before negotiations started.

 

[monkeybarry]

Extension after extension.

Previously it was a hard line "we'll let you hang yourselves", now its come to it they are backing off real fast to try and keep things in their favour.

suddenly their resolve has waned because they didnt expect us to actually do it, the bluff has been called.

Disagree. It's good negotiating. No deal is clearly terrible for everyone and the EU (like everyone else) won't be drawn into May's "make this failure look like someone else's fault" game.

They look accomodating at this point.
We wanted brexit, so it's down to is to create it

 

[AuroRaman]

1. I am not a "federalist". How have you decended into name calling? If you are right about your beliefs, lets debate it, without insults or getting upset with other people?

Ha, just by this line I know the poster you're referring to even though I have them on ignore. The epitome of a snowflake.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Um no. The extensions are there to prevent no deal Brexit. Which would be damaging to them... But much more damaging to us.

I did say to you at the start they would not agree a deal that crossed their Red lines and they haven't. Any deal will be worse than membership, which has been proved correct.

They are granting extension because we are asking for them... If we stop asking for them... No more extensions.

Any chance of playing hardball left with triggering Art50 before negotiations started.

They have been absolute all the way through. Their way or the highway. And they got their way at every stage.

When it comes down to it though, they have backed away from Hard Brexit rather hastily, havent they?

Their tone has gone from "No extension" to "A short extension if it suits us" to a rather vague possible longer extension. Backpeddling.

They are now making the same demands they did 2 years ago, because they can see its not falling their way. We are actually capable of hard brexit (admittedly more by incompetence than design) which they just didnt think possible all throughout. Its the same arrogance the remain campaign had when the referendum came up originally.

All the way through its been "Hard brexit is bad but we'll do it if it comes to it". Now its come to it its now "WE'RE MAKING DEMANDS but lets not do it, anything but that...."

I think the shift in tone from them is notable. When its come to it they havent had the balls to see it through.

Personally I do agree with Parklane(r?) here - I think they are now scrambling to try and dictate an outcome still. At the moment a soft Brexit looks likely which will suit them, but its desperation and not design.

 

[DTA]

They have been absolute all the way through. Their way or the highway. And they got their way at every stage.

When it comes down to it though, they have backed away from Hard Brexit rather hastily, havent they?

Their tone has gone from "No extension" to "A short extension if it suits us" to a rather vague possible longer extension. Backpeddling.

They are now making the same demands they did 2 years ago, because they can see its not falling their way. We are actually capable of hard brexit (admittedly more by incompetence than design) which they just didnt think possible all throughout. Its the same arrogance the remain campaign had when the referendum came up originally.

All the way through its been "Hard brexit is bad but we'll do it if it comes to it". Now its come to it its now "WE'RE MAKING DEMANDS but lets not do it, anything but that...."

I think the shift in tone from them is notable. When its come to it they havent had the balls to see it through.

Personally I do agree with Parklane(r?) here - I think they are now scrambling to try and dictate an outcome still. At the moment a soft Brexit looks likely which will suit them, but its desperation and not design.

I disagree with almost all of that. The extensions that we are asking for are being granted because we, and they want to avoid no deal.

If we don't want extensions then don't ask for them.

The flexible extension they are offering, which you see as a sign of weakness, is actually really smart on their part. As it stops us continuously coming up to cliff edges and then having to bother them again, it also stops May trying to bully parliament, and finally keeps a softer/no brexit on the table (if we as nation want it).

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

As I said - I think they are working things toward a soft brexit. I just dont think its "really smart" and more "really desperate".

They are pulling back from their hard line approach because its about to backfire on them spectacularly.

Because, after all thats been said - those of us who said we actually do have some weight in this situation really were right - and those who maintained it was more a case of the mighty EU offering us some charity are now getting the same awakening the EU are.

We do have some clout. We are a MASSIVE loss to them. Us leaving without a deal is not something they can just shrug off.

So now their set in stone approach has suddenly become rather flexible...

 

[Gutter Boy]

The EU will do anything to trap us in as close an arrangement as possible. If they'd granted May's initial extension request, instead of the extended 22/5 one, her deal would have passed weeks ago. Delays are their friend at the moment.

The Tory-Labour thing is quite funny too. They are so close together on position (and always have been), but for political reasons there's no way they can admit that and move forward. One wants a customs union with a theoretical way out that will never be allowed to happen, and the other wants a customs union.

The Boris lock thing is a bit weird too. An absolute fundamental principle of the British constitution is that no government can bind the hands of the next. It's sliding even more to authoritarianism if you start making future manifesto options illegal.

 

[Parklaner81]

And Im starting to fear they will get it.

This was a big part of the reason I came around to wanting May's deal to get through - I knew that if it didn't, things would only go in one direction.

 

[DTA]

As I said - I think they are working things toward a soft brexit. I just dont think its "really smart" and more "really desperate".

They are pulling back from their hard line approach because its about to backfire on them spectacularly.

Because, after all thats been said - those of us who said we actually do have some weight in this situation really were right - and those who maintained it was more a case of the mighty EU offering us some charity are now getting the same awakening the EU are.

We do have some clout. We are a MASSIVE loss to them. Us leaving without a deal is not something they can just shrug off.

So now their set in stone approach has suddenly become rather flexible...

What hard-line approach?

How are they pulling back from that? And simultaneously positioning themselves for a softer Brexit/no brexit? That makes no sense

 

[Baleforce]

It's almost like the EU are looking out for their citizens isn't it...

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

What hard-line approach?

How are they pulling back from that? And simultaneously positioning themselves for a softer Brexit/no brexit? That makes no sense

They have been absolute all the way through. Their way or the high way. Deadline is deadline. Hard Brexit is a possibility if it comes to it.

They have used this to apply massive pressure througout to get us to cave to a deal that suits them.

Then it came to it. Have we left yet?

Would suggest something gave a bit...


They have absolutely pulled back. However, because we have a circus rather than a government, that rather fortuitously means that delay they offer while trying to maintain an air of strength is actually playing into their hands.

The more delay there is the more chance there is of our government completely undoing Brexit and cancelling it or going for the BINOest of BINO.

 

[Baleforce]

They have been absolute all the way through. Their way or the high way. Deadline is deadline. Hard Brexit is a possibility if it comes to it.

They have used this to apply massive pressure througout to get us to cave to a deal that suits them.

Then it came to it. Have we left yet?

Would suggest something gave a bit...


They have absolutely pulled back. However, because we have a circus rather than a government, that rather fortuitously means that delay they offer while trying to maintain an air of strength is actually playing into their hands.

The more delay there is the more chance there is of our government completely undoing Brexit and cancelling it or going for the BINOest of BINO.

Isn't that what we were trying too?

 

[Gutter Boy]

This is quite good on the current economic structures: https://www.theguardian.com/comment...iberalism-freedom-control-privatisation-state

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Isn't that what we were trying too?

I dont think we have had a coherent enough plan at any point to "try to do" anything.

 

[DTA]

Isn't that what we were trying too?

Exactly.

No deal is better than a bad deal!

Remember that?

And

We have to leave no deal on the table.

Some classics by our strong and stable leader.

 

[Baleforce]

I dont think we have had a coherent enough plan at any point to "try to do" anything.

fair point, no deal was deemed to have been a required bargaining chip though

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

fair point, no deal was deemed to have been a required bargaining chip though

It really is though, isnt it? If we take no deal off the table then its all in the EUs hands as to how soft a brexit we are permitted. Thats not negotiation at all.

No deal being a very real option is essential, even if behind closed doors weve no intention of ever going there.

Though as I say, I dont believe we have anything close to a coherent strategy. And "good moves" we have or might make are by luck, not design.