StephenH
David Ginola
Clever and very articulate man. Don't agree with everything he stood for but liked him.
We could have done with more of him and this type of thing on both sides and importantly BEFORE the referendum.
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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)
- Thread starter SpurMeUp
- Start date
Clever and very articulate man. Don't agree with everything he stood for but liked him.
We could have done with more of him and this type of thing on both sides and importantly BEFORE the referendum.
So her trying to break the rules of the house is fine, but corbyn going to the EU to see if another way is possible is not fine?
And I'm not even a Corbyn fan.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
No.
Her trying to break the rules - and failing - and having to then abide by them, is what shows it works. Her intent is kept in check.
Corbyn shooting off rogue is not. He is out there trying to cut deals on the countries behalf without even the authority or mandate to do so. There is no being kept in check, hes just shot off...
He can't implement them without parliament though can he?
So they both intended to ''break" the rules (although I'm not sure Corbyn is breaking any rules, if so which one?)
But Parliament will decide what happens so that's all good.
To be honest considering and comparing her actions with his... His is a lesser evil.
In fact it could be argued that if he done nothing (something that you have berated him for) then he would have been negligent.
Adding to that, you berate him for doing nothing… but you don't like what he has done... So tell me what he should have done?
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
ERG say hi. They don't like the customs union either... And they are in no means right wing... They are just working class lads sticking it to the elite.
glasgowspur
Dimitar Berbatov
I'm not sure that's what he's doing, if he can show that there is a possibility of a better deal and that Brussels will negotiate it cuts the feet out from under the ERG and their ilk.
They need brought to heel and if cotbyn can show that there is another way it will lead to a better chance of labour winning a GE, something they (ERG) really don't want, they need that threat hung over them.
I'm not a corbyn fan, but at the moment I'd take him if he could resolve this mess. Doubt he, or anyone else, can though, it's too far down the road. We will drift along for at least two more years imo.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
So its perfectly fine for anyone to go meddling with the leaders of other countries, the leaders of the EU, so long as we get an ok with whatever they might agree?
Its fine that it completely undercuts and undermines the UKs actual elected leader? (as brick as she is)
Fundamentally I disagree with that, I think it is just wrong*. And have been at pains to stress its not a person/personality thing - its principle.
And I dont think its justified by comparing two evils and deciding one is lesser. They are two evils, neither is ok. Except - one is in check and the other is doing what the hell they like.
I have berated him for not doing a thing in the house, by playing a long game in search of power I feel he has let the people down. It is his job to be the opposition - IN THE HOUSE. Not on a whistle stop tour of Europe.
He could have whipped his party on any number of occasions to make things happen. Instead he has passed opportunity to take the choice to the people to break the deadlock. Offered no actual solution - just doggedly chased a GE so he can be PM.
I think it is completely valid to critisise him for this. And I dont see going off rogue as even a similar thing, its a different thing entirely.
*I actually dont know if he has broken any rule. Given the lack of reporting on it I assume not. Though I suspect its rather unprecedented action. I do, however, think it is principally wrong - and shouldnt be happening. Which is what I said in the first place.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
He does not lead this country. He does not hold power. He has no mandate to go and act like this, from what I can see.
He is acting completely independently. I do not think this is right.
Everything else is noise. Whether he finds a solution or not is beside the fact I think principally his actions are wrong.
Can I have some occasions where he could have whipped his party to break an impasse where he hasn't, excluding:
1: Whipping them to back Mays deal (which is shot and no one wants
2: whipping a vote that will not pass Parliament even if all his party follow the whip - for example the poorly timed second ref vote.
And again I'm not a fan of his.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
I was thinking explicitly of the second, where I still maintain more could have been done to make that happen. It was simply assumed not because there was no drive behind it.
Otherwise he has been distinctly inactive, he hasnt chased a second ref (barely acknowledged his parties desire for it), nor alternative options, nor pushed for anything to happen other than a GE. His intentions have been clear all along.
Whic is all beside the point, and somewhat deflecting from the core thing here. Its fine - you seem to think its acceptable for an MP to go off half roostered and try to negotiate on the countries behalf with neither authority or mandate. I dont, its the nature of things that we dont always agree.
For me it's more that he's ambivalent about everything e.g. is he for maintaining and ending freedom of movement would be one good example and does he want the UK to to be able to set it's own trade deals and by association tariffs which you can't in the customs union.
I think you can't sit around waiting for the opportune moment to strike, their was a perfect opportunity to back the 2nd referendum and he chose not to do so. There may not be another occasion.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
I'm pretty sure you can request a postal vote, not post it, then use it as a voting card on the day instead. I think I've done that before.
StephenH
David Ginola
My problem or should I say my feeling of 'something is not quite right' is not the result or the way parliament is coping or not with things atm.
The four months of campaigning prior to the vote was so poor it was skewed as though only one side was prepared in any way for the Brexit vote and it thus failed.
Leave were far more aware of the job in hand and remain were taken by total surprise and were in catchup mode! Now that's great for the victors in an out and out race where the winner gets a cup or whatever.
Brexit though was not a race or a competition. It was a prosses to inform fairly everybody to allow them to make a considered decision in a forthcoming vote.
This lack of information and time to inform everybody equally was imo were it failed and we are now seeing the result in parliament and the country.
Brexit was rushed and I think now we are seeing the result or lack thereof.
May 'should' because of the campaigning inbalances back in 2016 hold a rerun. There is only one loser atm, the people.
The four months of campaigning prior to the vote was so poor it was skewed as though only one side was prepared in any way for the Brexit vote and it thus failed.
Leave were far more aware of the job in hand and remain were taken by total surprise and were in catchup mode! Now that's great for the victors in an out and out race where the winner gets a cup or whatever.
Brexit though was not a race or a competition. It was a prosses to inform fairly everybody to allow them to make a considered decision in a forthcoming vote.
This lack of information and time to inform everybody equally was imo were it failed and we are now seeing the result in parliament and the country.
Brexit was rushed and I think now we are seeing the result or lack thereof.
May 'should' because of the campaigning inbalances back in 2016 hold a rerun. There is only one loser atm, the people.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
The problem with the remain campaign was that no one loved the EU or could outline its positives. Whereas leavers had 40 years to sharpen their criticisms. Remain was reluctance (we know it's crap, but...) and fear. And that's not changed in 3 years. Aside from Clegg, no one has ever made a positive case for the EU. They should have pitched it like we were an ex-Soviet country and they were trying to sell 'join'.
Ok I get this. And part of me agrees. Another part of me thinks that a second referendum with a simple in or out AGAIN is flimflam simply because OUT is not defined.
However Mays deal Vs remain, that's the ref that I would like to see.
It would be a vote on something tangible, no unicorns or any other brick.
I'm with you on this.
The 'migrant crisis' was also a factor that no one mentions that much.
Hence Farage standing in front of a poster of loads of brown people that proclaimed:
'they are coming'
StephenH
David Ginola
Yes, whatever!
But it the lack of coherent balances in the information will just give one side the vote they crave. But it will have failed in its key task of informing everybody equally, which was paramount for it to works correctly.