Politics, politics, politics

[SpurMeUp]

Yes, the EU applies regulation whether we sell in the UK, the US, the Middle East or the EU. One of the main points in the "sovereignty" argument is that we should be free to apply the rules we wish to the products we wish. Of course, if we want to sell to the EU then those products should meet EU regulations but that shouldn't be the case when we try to compete globally.

I agree. Seems crazy to apply regulation to non-EU exports. Which laws or edicts are these?

 

[SpurMeUp]

A slight initial downturn as people get used to the new world, possibly different supply chain planning etc. Longer-term much more innovative global trade without EU setting tarrifs centrally etc
Financial services in UK to surge ahead of ECB in 10 years as Eurozone grapples more with national debt, unemployment etc.

ECB is a bank like the Bank of England. It doesn't sell anything so we should be able to surge ahead of it without too much difficulty. One question to you: why are we not innovating with global trade now? What is holding us back? Germany and Italy sell a tonne more outside the EU than we do now.

No more "we can't do this or that due to EU red tape etc etc" excuses from national MPs and will be held much more to account for decisions/actions.
Watching from the sidelines whilst civil unrest/populism rises across EU zone as citizens start to feel more remote from the centralised decision-making processes; perhaps the first deployment of the 'EU Defence Force' will be to Hungary to quell anti-EU dissent there...

What is it we can't do now, that MPs allude to. Care to share?

The Euro zone has some pretty small weak economies, yet more or less every EU nation has outstripped UK growth since the vote. They have structural issues which the Euro doesn't always help (positives and negatives to it), but the Brexiteer's vision (or a passionate desire?) for the EU to cruble looks pie in the sky. Faced with humongous debts (mainly to Germany) the Greeks chose not to defult, and instead stay in the EU. Out of interest, why is it that Brexiteers want the EU to fail? Why is there such a passionate dislike of the EU?

 

[Gutter Boy]

Out of interest, why is it that Brexits want the EU to fail? Why is there such a passionate dislike of the EU?

I'd imagine:

1) We are the mother of democracy, and fundamentally disagree with the principle of outsourcing democracy

2) We've been brought up with colonial guilt, so now fundamentally oppose anything that looks like colonialism

All leavers love Europeans and other European countries. It's simply the machines of the super-state and federalism that people are opposed to. The fact that we want it to crumble and for the other countries to join us outside it is testament to that.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Brexit: No visa but Britons will pay €7 to travel to EU countries

• 12 minutes ago

Britons will have to pay €7 (£6.30) every three years to travel to EU countries, as a consequence of Brexit.

The European Commission has confirmed that while UK travellers will not need a visa, they will need to apply for and buy another document from 2021.

It is called an ETIAS (European Travel Information and Authorization System) and although not launched yet, is expected to come into force in 2021.

The travel requirement is not just for the UK but for many non-EU countries.

What is the ETIAS?
Citizens of EU countries - which currently includes British people - are able to travel anywhere in the EU.

But anyone from a non-EU country has to apply for a visa - unless they are from a special list of 61 countries, which also includes the US, Japan and Australia.

Nationals from these 61 countries can travel within the EU's Schengen zone - the area where people can travel without border checks - for up to 90 days without a visa.

However, because of the migrant crisis and security concerns over terrorism, the EU has decided to bring in more controls over the countries on this special list.

So it is introducing the ETIAS - an electronic application form - which is Europe's version of the United States' $14 ESTA, although as the EU Commission points out, it is "way cheaper".

It is not a visa but a travel requirement for anyone on that list of 61 non-EU countries who are coming to the EU for business, tourism, medical or transit-related reasons for up to 90 days.

The EU says the ETIAS system will "undergo a detailed security check of each applicant".

What will UK travellers to the EU have to do?
Under the Brexit deal, EU citizens and UK nationals will continue to be able to travel freely with a passport or identity card until the end of the transition period in 2020.

After this period ends, the European Commission has offered visa-free travel for UK nationals coming to the EU for a short stay, as long as the UK offers the same in return.

But although they do not need a visa, UK nationals will need an ETIAS - deal or no deal.

The form will take no more than 10 minutes to fill out, the EU says, and anyone between the ages of 18 and 70 must pay the fee.

The details needed for the application form will include passport information, education and work experience, as well as background questions about criminal records or medical conditions.

Applicants must also give details of the first EU country they intend to visit.

Most applicants will find out if their application has been successful within minutes, the EU says, after the system checks whether all your information is correct, if you are eligible and how risky you are. Applications can also be denied or take up to two weeks to process.

If successful, the ETIAS will last for three years. You can enter the EU Schengen zone as many times as you like on the ETIAS permit - as long as you do not stay more than 90 days in a 180 day period.

It is not known what rules will apply to EU tourists coming to the UK, but according to the EU and UK's political declaration, both sides will aim to provide "visa-free travel for short-term visits".

The European Commission previously said the EU's offer of visa-free travel to the UK was "entirely conditional upon the UK also granting reciprocal and non-discriminatory visa-free travel for all EU member states".

The proposal - which will come into force on 29 March 2019 when the UK leaves the EU in the event of a no-deal Brexit - must be adopted by the EU Parliament and European Council before it can come into force.

The UK already grants visa-free travel to nationals from 56 countries - ranging from the United States to the Maldives - allowing people to stay for a maximum of six months. But they are not allowed to work, study or settle.




So, a simple, cheap and easy answer to all those who said travel would be much harder if not impossible.

Just as stated years ago. Another Brexit myth debunked.

I am not one that thinks there will be massive difficulty but that is reliant on "entirely conditional upon the UK also granting reciprocal and non-discriminatory visa-free travel for all EU member states". I am pretty sure when it came to Visas most were saying it would be reciprocal, but it does mean we can't make Polish have a visa but not the French etc.

People were saying there would be issues with a no deal WTO brexit, they were particularly pointing out the issues that the aviation companies face.

Myth not debunked IMHO, we will see how it goes.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

People were quite specifically carping about how they wouldnt be able to holiday as they do now.

To which I pointed to the rest of the world, and how not having free movement of people hardly impedes that. Specifically pointing to the states method of online visa/form to facilitate. Which is exactly what theyve ended up going with.

Your quote isnt complete.
The European Commission previously said the EU's offer of visa-free travel to the UK was "entirely conditional upon the UK also granting reciprocal and non-discriminatory visa-free travel for all EU member states".

PREVIOUSLY said. Previous to this system. Still valid?

Nationals from these 61 countries can travel within the EU's Schengen zone - the area where people can travel without border checks - for up to 90 days without a visa.

No mention of reciprocity there. But we already have similar anyway:

The UK already grants visa-free travel to nationals from 56 countries - ranging from the United States to the Maldives - allowing people to stay for a maximum of six months. But they are not allowed to work, study or settle.

So yeah, I think its pretty obvious it wont be a problem.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Pretty much anyone from a first world country can get a 3-month travel visa here. EU27 countries will just get treated the same as Canadians, Kiwis or Japanese already are

 

[r-u-s-x]

People were quite specifically carping about how they wouldnt be able to holiday as they do now.

To which I pointed to the rest of the world, and how not having free movement of people hardly impedes that. Specifically pointing to the states method of online visa/form to facilitate. Which is exactly what theyve ended up going with.

Your quote isnt complete.
The European Commission previously said the EU's offer of visa-free travel to the UK was "entirely conditional upon the UK also granting reciprocal and non-discriminatory visa-free travel for all EU member states".

PREVIOUSLY said. Previous to this system. Still valid?



So yeah, I think its pretty obvious it wont be a problem.

Same article :

"What will UK travellers to the EU have to do?
Under the Brexit deal, EU citizens and UK nationals will continue to be able to travel freely with a passport or identity card until the end of the transition period in 2020.

After this period ends, the European Commission has offered visa-free travel for UK nationals coming to the EU for a short stay, as long as the UK offers the same in return."

The main concern about travel was under no deal brexit and Air Traffic etc. I personally think that it will not be an issue but separate agreements will need to be reached if we go down the WTO route, this news has no impact on this.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Pretty much anyone from a first world country can get a 3-month travel visa here. EU27 countries will just get treated the same as Canadians, Kiwis or Japanese already are

yep - but it will mean we have to let the Poles in Visa free if we want to go to France Visa free etc. I have no issue with this but it is the situation.

 

[Gutter Boy]

yep - but it will mean we have to let the Poles in Visa free if we want to go to France Visa free etc. I have no issue with this but it is the situation.

Apparently 173 countries already have visa free tourist access to the UK, with only 33 that don't. So it's not likely we'd suddenly move Poland into the Banana Republics group

 

[r-u-s-x]

Apparently 173 countries already have visa free tourist access to the UK, with only 33 that don't. So it's not likely we'd suddenly move Poland into the Banana Republics group

I know - and the EU have always said they would treat us the same as we treat them so the Visa thing was always a non-issue. The other Aviation agreements less so but I would think they would also be sorted.

*unless there is a monumental fallout and we elect Mogg or something.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Same article :

"What will UK travellers to the EU have to do?
Under the Brexit deal, EU citizens and UK nationals will continue to be able to travel freely with a passport or identity card until the end of the transition period in 2020.

After this period ends, the European Commission has offered visa-free travel for UK nationals coming to the EU for a short stay, as long as the UK offers the same in return."

The main concern about travel was under no deal brexit and Air Traffic etc. I personally think that it will not be an issue but separate agreements will need to be reached if we go down the WTO route, this news has no impact on this.

I think you are talking about something else, as Ive stated - my response is in regard to the cries that we wouldnt be able to travel/holiday as freely as now.

Clearly we will.

 

[r-u-s-x]

I think you are talking about something else, as Ive stated - my response is in regard to the cries that we wouldnt be able to travel/holiday as freely as now.

Clearly we will.

the article you posted adds nothing to this though - The EU have always said they will make us use Visas if we make any of their members use Visas, nothing has changed, this is still the case.

No myths debunked and peoples concerns for no deal brexit remain.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I'd imagine:

1) We are the mother of democracy, and fundamentally disagree with the principle of outsourcing democracy

2) We've been bought up with colonial guilt, so now fundamentally oppose anything that looks like colonialism

All leavers love Europeans and other European countries. It's simply the machines of the super-state and federalism that people are opposed to. The fact that we want it to crumble and for the other countries to join us outside it is testament to that.

What is 'outsourcing democracy''? A sound bite or something of substance? No one can deny or halt global trade, international affiars, global travel. 100 years ago Corwall and Wales had their own languages and were as far away from London as London is from Madrid these days. Probably twice as far if measured by travel time.

Post World Wars, that we have a conduit in the EU to cooperate and trade freely with 27 close allies, is not "outcourcing democracy". Wft is outsourcing democracy? Anyone can vote at EU elections, that we don't tells you all you need to know about how powerful and influential the EU is over the UK - not very, and highly insignificant to our day to day lives.

I don't think the UK is isolationist by nature. Or backward thinking. What Brexiteers hark back to is a colonial prowess: an outwards looking UK that works with other nations (not exploits them as in the past). It's ironic really. Under Brexit, are we going to live in the past and deny younger people oppotunity and membership of progressive alliences that really do mean something? To collaborate to reduce pollution, to stand up to tyranny (the very essence and history of the EU), to trade freely, to share education programmes, research, security information...with democratic sovrign people who we are linked-to and most similar to ourselves? There isn't rational logic for Brexit, which is sad because there is such feeling behind it. How can the UK harness these sentiments in a positive way?

 

[Parklaner81]

I completely accept that. In this thread I've previously outlined how a progressive UK leader might put together something fresh which delivers some of the themes of Brexit (from within the EU). UK training for UK workers, controlling immigrantion from rest of the world (250k people vs 70k from EU), working with Euro-sceptical EU leaders to control FOM more and any other issues the UK would like to see addressed, Creating a programme for increasing rest of the world exports as other EU nations do. And some fresh things like mandatory national service for out of work people, putting them to good use, nationalise the railways. National drives, things with national collective identity and resonance, sports programmes etc. You don't need Brexit to do any of these things!!!

I get that you adore these figures having quoted them several times recently, but you know as well as I do that they are massively influenced by the brexit situation and bear little relation to the split beforehand.

 

[Parklaner81]

I reckon a green shoot of a solution might have appeared last night. A legal clause along the line of: the UK-EU FTA will come into force on 1 Jan 2022. If this is not in place at that time, the UK will remain in the EEA until the FTA is in place. While in the EEA the UK will pay half fees (based on the usual GDP per head of population calculations), but continue to accept FoM.

So basically make the backstop impossible, but the replacement unpalatable to both sides.

Surely that would constitute renegotiation of the withdrawal agreement though?

 

[SpurMeUp]

I get that you adore these figures having quoted them several times recently, but you know as well as I do that they are massively influenced by the brexit situation and bear little relation to the split beforehand.

I do adore these figures, well find it funny, as the Brexit result was billed as being all about immigration. May structured her exit deal around controlling FoM, and here we are...less than a Wembley stadium crowd stay in the UK from the EU. I don't think it is solely because EU migrants feel less welcome in the UK, though that might factor, I think the bigger piece is that Poland etc are much stronger economies now. People get paid a lot more there then they did and the cost of living is less there so why come to the UK? European nations are issueing visas to people from Ukraine, Belarus etc now to try and access cheaper labour as a result of this. The reason Germany let in so many migrants was partly down to this need. They don't need Brexit to do it either.

The other funny thing is that those who are less chuffed with immigrants tend to dislike the non-english speaking hijab wearing types you see at the doctors who have to have a translator present etc. That's the 250,000 that we control now, these are not people coming from the EU.

Does Brexit do anything? Anything that it promised? Nope.

 

[the dza]

I do adore these figures, well find it funny, as the Brexit result was billed as being all about immigration. May structured her exit deal around controlling FoM, and here we are...less than a Wembley stadium crowd stay in the UK from the EU. I don't think it is solely because EU migrants feel less welcome in the UK, though that might factor, I think the bigger piece is that Poland etc are much stronger economies now. People get paid a lot more there then they did and the cost of living is less there so why come to the UK? European nations are issueing visas to people from Ukraine, Belarus etc now to try and access cheaper labour as a result of this. The reason Germany let in so many migrants was partly down to this need. They don't need Brexit to do it either.

The other funny thing is that those who are less chuffed with immigrants tend to dislike the non-english speaking hijab wearing types you see at the doctors who have to have a translator present etc. That's the 250,000 that we control now, these are not people coming from the EU.

Does Brexit do anything? Anything that it promised? Nope.

How many non-EU migrants are coming here to solely do unskilled work?

Was it mainly skilled or unskilled workers who voted for Brexit?

Figures mean nothing without some context.

 

[milo]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1073506943673778177

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

the article you posted adds nothing to this though - The EU have always said they will make us use Visas if we make any of their members use Visas, nothing has changed, this is still the case.

No myths debunked and peoples concerns for no deal brexit remain.

The vote went through, and among the first cries from remainers was "Oh but I wont be able to travel like I do now!".

Clearly they will. Debunking confirmed.

Deal/No Deal, this looks like including ourselves in a wider agreement - world wide in fact. One that simplifies travel to the same degree as visiting nations outside the EU (nations which people werent concerned about the difficulty of visiting pre vote, no distinction made RE EU/NonEU prior...)

I said there and then, worst ways we'll end up with a USA like system and thats exactly what this is.

All the tinkling and moaning then was unwarranted, and Im glad its been put to bed now.

 

[monkeybarry]

The vote went through, and among the first cries from remainers was "Oh but I wont be able to travel like I do now!".

Clearly they will. Debunking confirmed.

Deal/No Deal, this looks like including ourselves in a wider agreement - world wide in fact. One that simplifies travel to the same degree as visiting nations outside the EU (nations which people werent concerned about the difficulty of visiting pre vote, no distinction made RE EU/NonEU prior...)

I said there and then, worst ways we'll end up with a USA like system and thats exactly what this is.

All the tinkling and moaning then was unwarranted, and Im glad its been put to bed now.

That's true. I will have to remember to apply for a visa waiver and probably plan ahead. Doubt I'll be able to book a next day Eurostar unless I have an already valid waiver.
This is also only due from 2020, so if we have a no deal Brexit (which wasn't far away from the "we voted out, we leave right now" hyperbole coming from some leavers), there is huge uncertainty about about what even the most basic travel will look like.

And, the pound is greatly devalued (which the savings highly unlikely to be passed on via reduced goods prices equivalent to/greater than pre referendum), so any Euro trips will cost more.

To deny there is significant change is to bury one's head in the sand.