Politics, politics, politics

[Gutter Boy]

,

No, no, no! The meme is that Labour is racist. Don't bring up substantiated examples of Tory racists and Tory racist policy. That is not the meme, the meme is that Labour is anti semitic, do not deviate from the Group Think.

Labour are anti-Semitic and misogynistic. It's endemic - I see it at my own local level. They need to get their house in order so they can take the moral high ground. But at the moment they are just both as bad as each other, and that's not a good position for a supposedly progressive party.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Labour are anti-Semitic and misogynistic. It's endemic - I see it at my own local level. They need to get their house in order so they can take the moral high ground. But at the moment they are just both as bad as each other, and that's not a good position for a supposedly progressive party.

Gee, you don't mind making the great big sweeping generalization do you? Being against the fascist Israeli government and Israeli treatment of Palestine does not make a person anti Semitic. Equivalency is a card always dished out by Tory apologists.

 

[StephenH]

Jewis right wing press don’t like Labour shock!

 

[Gutter Boy]

Gee, you don't mind making the great big sweeping generalization do you? Being against the fascist Israeli government and Israeli treatment of Palestine does not make a person anti Semitic. Equivalency is a card always dished out by Tory apologists.

I support a Palestinian state based on 1967 borders (including the return of land with new settlements), like most sensible people in the world. But a significant proportion of Labour party members are anti-Semitic. Their hated of Israelis is abhorrent.

 

[StephenH]

There is little about today's israel that is appealing. It is like S. Africa during apartheid.

 

[the dza]

Labour are anti-Semitic and misogynistic. It's endemic - I see it at my own local level. They need to get their house in order so they can take the moral high ground. But at the moment they are just both as bad as each other, and that's not a good position for a supposedly progressive party.

That's just not true. There are some cranks in a membership of half a million and they need to be dealt with. But as I said, the former Home Secretary and current Prime Minister have presided over policy (immigration act 2014) that has disproportionately affected a minority group in this country. They were warned that it would and pressed on regardless. They have at least 3 MPs that are on record as using racist language towards black people. And no single MP has received as much racist abuse online as Dianne Abbot.

So if anti-Semitism in the Labour Party is a problem worthy of a Parliamentary debate, then racism towards non-whites is certainly a big enough problem in the Tory Party to warrant a similar debate and level of media scrutiny. That the Tories are not getting that level of scrutiny shows the double standards of the establishment media and shows that their real concern isn't racism, but attacking the current leadership of the Labour Party.

 

[Gutter Boy]

That's just not true. There are some cranks in a membership of half a million and they need to be dealt with. But as I said, the former Home Secretary and current Prime Minister have presided over policy (immigration act 2014) that has disproportionately affected a minority group in this country. They were warned that it would and pressed on regardless. They have at least 3 MPs that are on record as using racist language towards black people. And no single MP has received as much racist abuse online as Dianne Abbot.

So if anti-Semitism in the Labour Party is a problem worthy of a Parliamentary debate, then racism towards non-whites is certainly a big enough problem in the Tory Party to warrant a similar debate and level of media scrutiny. That the Tories are not getting that level of scrutiny shows the double standards of the establishment media and shows that their real concern isn't racism, but attacking the current leadership of the Labour Party.

Or maybe everyone just knows it about the Tories, but expects better of a left wing party. Like everyone knew Harvey Weinstein was a nasty molesterer, but allegations about Terry Gilliam are hard to listen to.

 

[the dza]

Or maybe everyone just knows it about the Tories, but expects better of a left wing party. Like everyone knew Harvey Weinstein was a nasty molesterer, but allegations about Terry Gilliam are hard to listen to.

That entirely misses the point as to why one is debated in Parliament and put at the top of the mainstream media's agenda for days and days on end, and why the other is not even acknowledged as an 'endemic' problem (Tory racism against non-whites). It is nothing to do with expectations and everything to do with bias against the current incarnation of Labour, because Labour is actually a left-wing party now. If racism was the concern, the Tories would be forced to address their much greater issues in the same way that Labour are.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

I support a Palestinian state based on 1967 borders (including the return of land with new settlements), like most sensible people in the world. But a significant proportion of Labour party members are anti-Semitic. Their hated of Israelis is abhorrent.

There you go, you just contradicted yourself. Hating the Israeli government's actions is not anti Semitic! Maybe you need to look up the meaning of antisemitism

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

I hear some many bleeding heart statements about so called left wing racism, but crickets about the Tories and UKIP. On these parties the rabid call out kings are silent. Political agenda maybe? Ha, ha. the establishment will do anything to sink a real left wing alternative in this country, any slander or smear will do. So if smearing a mass movement as anti Semitic is the price, they will do it. Some people have no shame!

 

[Gutter Boy]

There you go, you just contradicted yourself. Hating the Israeli government's actions is not anti Semitic! Maybe you need to look up the meaning of antisemitism

No I said Israelis, as in Israeli people, not the Israeli government.

The UK uses the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism, which includes criticism of Israel as a state above that levelled against any other country. Criticism against say Iran or North Korea is never really against Iran or North Korea - it is against the regimes of Kim Jong Un and Ayatollah Khomeini. But Labour's hatred is always against Israel, not the Netanyahu regime.

 

[Gutter Boy]

I hear some many bleeding heart statements about so called left wing racism, but crickets about the Tories and UKIP. On these parties the rabid call out kings are silent. Political agenda maybe? Ha, ha. the establishment will do anything to sink a real left wing alternative in this country, any slander or smear will do. So if smearing a mass movement as anti Semitic is the price, they will do it. Some people have no shame!

You can't champion social justice if you have a such a background level of racism. It's like being a champion of women's lib, but then hating homosexuality. They've got to be whiter than white if they ever want to take the moral high ground.

It won't take much to fix. A zero tolerance policy - a dozen or so permanent expulsions now, and a trickle into the future as new bile turns up on social media. Corbyn is just ducking it because he knows how widespread it actually is.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Like i said, Labour is a mass movement and you and others have smeared thousands of honest, emphatic people by denigrating it as a WHOLE. Your comments are a disgrace, you should be ashamed. Still the left are always judged by higher standards than the right, it has always been thus. it's this warped mentality that keeps the Establishment in power. BTW, ironically Israel is currently run by a pack of fascists, does that make me anti Semitic? There are Labour people who are scornful of Israelis... that is true... the aforementioned fascists. So you have a problem with that do you?

 

[Gutter Boy]

Like i said, Labour is a mass movement and you and others have smeared thousands of honest, emphatic people by denigrating it as a WHOLE. Your comments are a disgrace, you should be ashamed. Still the left are always judged by higher standards than the right, it has always been thus. it's this warped mentality that keeps the Establishment in power. BTW, ironically Israel is currently run by a pack of fascists, does that make me anti Semitic? There are Labour people who are scornful of Israelis... that is true... the aforementioned fascists. So you have a problem with that do you?

But it's a high enough background level. It might be a minority of say 5-10%, but it's not just 2 or 3 individuals. There's a real boorish obsession with it. In the entire career of my local MP, 100% of his parliamentary contributions have been on the subject of Israel, something of great interest and importance to his local constituents (not!).

If you want a balanced left wing approach to the subject - one that firmly criticises Israeli government actions but equally recognises the country's rights (to exist) and (security) concerns - here it is (towards the bottom): https://policy.greenparty.org.uk/ip.html

The current Israeli government is fascist - yes. The current American government is fascist - yes. My Labour MP is fascist - yes (he's known locally as 'Mini-Trump' because of his hateful attitudes to women, gay people and jews - https://order-order.com/people/jared-omara/)

 

[StephenH]

"The current Israeli government is fascist - yes."

I dont like Israel or people who support them like eg Trump and quite a few in the Jewish community.

I am not anti Jews or anti Semitic whatever that actually means these days.

It's starting to echo the wonderful Jehovah sketch from 'Life of Brian'

 

[SpurMeUp]

"The current Israeli government is fascist - yes."

I dont like Israel or people who support like eg Trump and quite a few in the Jewish community.

I am anti not Jews or anti Semitic whatever that actually means these day.

Hard to get a feeling for Isrealis reality without going or living there. Have to imagine all your neighbouring countries see themselves as at war with you. I'm not appologising for right wing facist like governments, and Isreal should do more to lead the peace process, but it is hard to imagine what it would be like with rockets being fired into your country, regular suscide attacks, no real trade with neighbours etc.

 

[90291Spur]

Hard to get a feeling for Isrealis reality without going or living there. Have to imagine all your neighbouring countries see themselves as at war with you. I'm not appologising for right wing facist like governments, and Isreal should do more to lead the peace process, but it is hard to imagine what it would be like with rockets being fired into your country, regular suscide attacks, no real trade with neighbours etc.

I don’t doubt that growing up in a de facto war zone is horrific and exceedingly stressfu. lI know many Israelis who have left the country exactly because of that situation and how their government behaves. Just like I know loads of South Africans who left in the 80’s and 90’s for the same reason.

 

[StephenH]

The logic of "Israel" is hard for me to square away. I "understand" the religious ....angle from a Jewish point of view.

So let me get this right, you want to set a new Jewish 'country' in Palestine?
Isn't that an existing arab country? Yes
Next!

When the human race puts it mind to something they can truly create a fudgeup of perfect proportions.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

But it's a high enough background level. It might be a minority of say 5-10%, but it's not just 2 or 3 individuals. There's a real boorish obsession with it. In the entire career of my local MP, 400% of his parliamentary contributions have been on the subject of Israel, something of great interest and importance to his local constituents (not!).

If you want a balanced left wing approach to the subject - one that firmly criticises Israeli government actions but equally recognises the country's rights (to exist) and (security) concerns - here it is (towards the bottom): https://policy.greenparty.org.uk/ip.html

The current Israeli government is fascist - yes. The current American government is fascist - yes. My Labour MP is fascist - yes (he's known locally as 'Mini-Trump' because of his hateful attitudes to women, gay people and jews - https://order-order.com/people/jared-omara/)

But it's a high enough background level. It might be a minority of say 5-10%, but it's not just 2 or 3 individuals. There's a real boorish obsession with it. In the entire career of my local MP, 400% of his parliamentary contributions have been on the subject of Israel, something of great interest and importance to his local constituents (not!).

If you want a balanced left wing approach to the subject - one that firmly criticises Israeli government actions but equally recognises the country's rights (to exist) and (security) concerns - here it is (towards the bottom): https://policy.greenparty.org.uk/ip.html

The current Israeli government is fascist - yes. The current American government is fascist - yes. My Labour MP is fascist - yes (he's known locally as 'Mini-Trump' because of his hateful attitudes to women, gay people and jews - https://order-order.com/people/jared-omara/)

If i remember correctly your local member has been suspended from taking the Labour whip? He is a oncer nut, in no way representative of the labour movement Asking questions about Israeli Palestinian policy doesn't make one an anti semite. it might just make him a dud local member and a bit of a nut. So you reckon between 5 and 10 % of Labour members are ant Semitic. That's a big call. Around 25000 to 50,000 people. You say that with no proof at all to back it up. it's just a throw away line and it is ridiculous.

 

[StephenH]

Hard to get a feeling for Isrealis reality without going or living there. Have to imagine all your neighbouring countries see themselves as at war with you. I'm not appologising for right wing facist like governments, and Isreal should do more to lead the peace process, but it is hard to imagine what it would be like with rockets being fired into your country, regular suscide attacks, no real trade with neighbours etc.

Only because you shouldn't be there. Europeans and the US annexed the land and dumped on the palestinians. sweet! Potted version