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Politics, politics, politics part deux

Discussion in 'Randomination' started by SpurMeUp, 19 Feb 2019.

  1. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Christian Ziege

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    Looks like you edited your previous post and added some good points so will quote that bit too:

    I agree. There are ligitimate issues. Legitimate reasons for voting Brexit and Trump. The political classes for example can't really appreciate an English bus driver who hasn't had a pay rise for a decade, and he puts it down to Poles coming in and doing his job for less money. If that was me I think I'd feel the same, fair play to guy. In the US there is an underclass. The extremes of wealth are bigger than ever before. What I don't get is why people don't vote for Sanders or Corbyn who offer wealth redistribution and to represent working people. Instead backing elites - Conservatives - who are using them to maintain the establishment's control over wealth.

    Brexit has been a life line for Farage. Think about it. He helps create a movement using promises no one can deliver. When they can't deliver, he says "look at these corrupt incompetents" they are letting you down. It is Brexit that is not delivering. Politicans like May are not stupid. MPs are not purposfully trying to screw the people, they are trying to protect the people - their job is to make sure the economy doesn't fall apart. Should they not be doing this?

    I don't dispute that the Brexit party will do well, but it is a con job, with no vision and it won't lead to any value.
     
    Last edited: 15 May 2019
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  2. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Christian Ziege

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    I think the point is, when you look at what people want and need, Brexit doesn't offer them toffee. That you can't outline what it is you think people in power should listen to - even for yourself - it is interesting.
     
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  3. Grays_1890

    Grays_1890 Milija Aleksic

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    So because I can't personally explain what everyone one of these people wanted it makes the point that people did not feel listened too any less valid?

    Alright then
     
  4. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Christian Ziege

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    Yes of course it makes it less valid. If you state that people are not being listened to, but then can not say what it is that they are saying or being ignored over, how could anyone possibly act? It's like a girlfriend who expects you to read their mind. "You should know what I want"
     
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  5. Grays_1890

    Grays_1890 Milija Aleksic

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    So if I watch the news and a host of people say "We voted Brexit because we feel left behind" then I need to know what it is exactly they feel left behind about to come on here and say "there are a bunch of people that feel left behind"

    Come off it mate, the thing is you are doing exactly what kills this country, you try and belittle people and make them look stupid and thats the divide. I am not a greatly educated man and many people communicate on different levels and struggle to do so, yet in some kind of snobbish nature you would rather belittle them than give any kind of credit to their point.

    Fact is the country voted leave, leave was not achieved and it spawned a new party for Brexit which is gaining traction on purely on the basis that Brexit was not achieved and is done so on little substance from Farage whatsoever. If you don't believe that is due to a rebel vote again based on note being listened to then like with politics there is no hope for the future.

    And for that reason I am out of the conversation.
     
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  6. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Christian Ziege

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    I have no desire to belittle people. That is Scara's job. If by debating things, we can understand them better, that is of interest. If you are willing to pull things apart, then super lets do it. But don't take it personally. I appologies if I've offended.

    The reason Brexit has overun, and will continue to, is because people are being sold something that is not deliverable. And the current debate is keeping the populace away from the important issues. Farage is focused on talking about "Democracy", that is his bent. Previously it was "take back control" and immigration. But what do any of these sound bites mean? Honestly, F all. They are designed to capture people, but they also rile people up and perpetuate the brexit problem. The problem is this: Brexit that doesn't harm the UK is undeliverable. What Farage promised previously is undeliverable. There is no milk and honey, just more Farage snearing at people he doesn't like.

    If we can isolate what it is people actually want, we can see what can be done to help them (and we are in agreement politics needs to be refreshed). But Farage is not interested in helping working people. He is interested in delivering a Conservative hard Brexit that leaves working people worse off. His stock broker mates who already have money may be fine though.
     
    Last edited: 15 May 2019
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  7. the dza

    the dza Christian Ziege

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    I think what she said about people having "agency" is the thing that rings true. Where for a long time, people felt that it didn't matter if they voted or not, the TINA principle. Then Brexit came along and despite the last 3 years, it doesn't seem opinions have significantly shifted on the subject.

    I do get where she's coming from in this regard -- it's the same thing people like me have experienced when voting for Corbyn to be Labour leader. Whereby a decision is reached that the people who feel they are entitled to rule (and who always know best) don't agree with, so they move heaven and earth to reverse that democratic decision. From day 1 (before day 1 really) in the case of Corbyn, this has been what's happened in the Labour Party. And judging by all the polling, this is what a large chunk of people are feeling about Brexit (or the lack of it).

    I voted to Remain, I would do so again. My preferred flavour of Brexit is soft, along the lines of Norway. But anyone who favours remain or a soft-Brexit can't ignore the polling and how the Brexit Party has stormed into being a viable threat to the main parties in about a month, on the back of a single issue. IMO, if we want compromise, the first thing that those on the remain side of the argument should do is accept that we should leave the EU in some form or other and then put their energy into resolving the issue with a soft-Brexit. It's about the going for the least worst options now imo. At least a soft-Brexit can be argued for on the basis of accepting the referendum result, which was to leave the EU but said nothing about how we leave (which is all fair game imo).
     
  8. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Christian Ziege

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    Firstly, those who voted for Brexit are not a massive majority. They were a third of the nation. A third voted to remain and a third didn't vote. In a represetative democracy - we vote in MPs who make the best decisions for us - politicians have to represent those who didn't vote as well as those who did.

    Democracy is overplayed and used as a soundbite like "taking back control". Our nation has been successfully governed using representative democracy, not referenda.

    From the whining you hear from Farage et al you'd imagine there is some overwhelming democratic mandate from the people that was not being implemented. Actually May got to the gates of delivering Brexit. A harder version of Brexit than Farage himself suggested pre-vote. Were he or his cronies happy with Brexit? No.and I don’t think they ever will be. There is no cake like exit available.

    Not to mention the initial vote was advisory, dodgy funding from abroad, false claims about funding the NHS from Brexit, lies about a danger from middle eastern immigrants, and that Brexit would be easy, that we'd hold all the cards in negotiations etc etc

    And to state the obvious Corbyn is still leader of the Labour party, so it looks like that democratic vote has been upheld. That Labour are so poorely is another story. If Corbyn could back Remain rather than sitting on the fence they would have a real chance with the Torys such a shambles. With a different leader Labour could be a force. So democracy hasn't done any favours for the Labour party or the nation in these instances.
     
    Last edited: 16 May 2019
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  9. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Christian Ziege

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    @the dza

    p.s. the reason we as a nation can not back a soft Norway like Brexit is because it would make us look stupid. Leavers would be saying why bother, Brexit has delivered less sovrignity to the UK not more. Remainers would be saying why bother too, we used to be a key player in Europe and global affairs helping to shape the world, now we just get told what to do, we've just degraded our position for some fishing rights (if we're lucky). Why would anyone want that?
     
    Last edited: 15 May 2019
  10. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Christian Ziege

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    I don't know why but I like Farage. Obviously never trust a syllable he says but he is a character. A bit like Boris.

    From saying Norway was what the UK needed to be pre-vote...to panning a Norway brexit now. Was Farage willfully misguiding people? Or simple not very smart; he didn't realise pre-vote that a Norway setup was a pretty bad option for the UK?

     
  11. Grays_1890

    Grays_1890 Milija Aleksic

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    He made an opportune move and played on the mood, ala Trump and goes back to what I said yesterday. UK politics opened a door to him and he walked through.
     
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  12. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Christian Ziege

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    Opportune for who?


    Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
     
  13. Grays_1890

    Grays_1890 Milija Aleksic

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    Himself
     
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  14. AuroRaman

    AuroRaman Young-Pyo Lee

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  15. DTA

    DTA Steed Malbranque

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    Got to say some of the arguements on there are pretty solid.

    Quite surprised to be honest.
     
    Last edited: 17 May 2019
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  16. Rorschach

    Rorschach Erik Thorstvedt

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  17. Grays_1890

    Grays_1890 Milija Aleksic

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    Like I said I am pr Brexit not Farage so I agree with you on this part.

    But mainstream politics plays into his hands far too often, Farage has no substance because he does not have a party that has to worry about getting into power so he is more a disrupter 400%, great talker, great PR man. However if you took him on the positive he talks the language of the people he represents and the vote that for example the Tories can't gain so they should look at him and work out what they can do to gain the same support that he does.
     
  18. scaramanga

    scaramanga Erik Thorstvedt Staff Member

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    Much like Corbyn.
     
  19. Grays_1890

    Grays_1890 Milija Aleksic

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    A huge reason Farage is doing so well
     
  20. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Christian Ziege

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    I think you've got it, summed it up well. Farage can - and will - say anything because he's not in it to stick about. And sadly few will stand up to his nonsense and call him out.

    But....the effect he might have on 'mainstream' politics, if there is such a thing still, could be far more dramatic. The Tories could well choose Boris for next leader. A bit like Farage no one ever thought he would get into power, and actually lead the Torys or the nation! He's another self serving joke. But Farage just opened the door for Boris. The logic: Boris is the only one who could defeat Farage. The Tory's fear the Brexit party taking their vote and installing Corbyn. Boris to the rescue.

    In a way Farage and Boris are cut from similar cloth - say anything, appeal to the common man and women, ballsy, leaders, interesting, provide good copy etc etc. Are either equiped to lead a nation? Fuk no. It would be our own Trump in power in the UK.

    Is Boris a real Euro-sceptic? He has two faces imo. On one side he gets Europe. He understands the benifits of the worlds largest free trade area. On the other side he's part of a Euro-sceptic club who love to bash the forign other and think we could be some kind of Rule Britania again (a delusion). Boris has the potential to swing either way imv. I know he's lately been seen as a real Brexiteer, but he can see both sides of the coin. Problem is Brexit has no middle ground. As Labour and the Conservatives are finding out, sitting on the fence wih Brexit is not an option. So Boris would have to be seen to be Mr Breixt, and use a hard exit as a way to try and get a better deal with the EU. But they won't acquiesce, the EU won't give up the EU to make us a better deal. They prefer to lose some trade with us and maintain the EU. It is impossible to have an EU where non-members get a better deal than members. As much as they like the us, how could the EU nations possibly agree to such a setup?

    Where would that leave Boris? Where would that leave the UK? Where would that leave the value of your house? Or the value of the pound, and things you buy in the shops? Or the cost of your forign holidays? Faced with reality, I think Boris might turn. He might not be the great Brexiteers hope when the proverbial hits the fan.

    We will see, if it comes to that with Boris doing a u-turn, then the UK will have suffered though years of lower investment, reduced growth and lost huge amounts of our money for services, possibly lost jobs too.

    So Farage, the joker who could install another joker? Where will it all end?
     
    Last edited: 18 May 2019

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