*** OMT: Tottenham Hotspur vs. Wolves ***

[billyiddo]

I’m not here to argue against anyone dissatisfied with style of play etc The only reason Im personally willing to give it another season is because he needs longer to recruit fully the personnel he wants (coaches often say they need a few windows,this isn’t a Mourinho specific thing). Secondly I’ve seen Mourinho teams a play a lot mainly Madrid and Chelsea ones and they don’t just park the bus, they offered plenty going forward. Of course he had stellar players to work with, but he didn’t instruct them to just defend when going a goal down and only in specific big games was there a very defensive approach. The vast majority who were here under Poch are still here, so it’s a big change in style and mixing with the new players i personally want to see how it’s panning out in a years time when he has had further time to work on his methods with a squad (hopefully a proper pre season) understanding what he is asking. I just have a feeling we will become better balanced at some point in the not too distant future. And we are still in the mix in all competitions. But I do completely agree we need to do more going forward, judging by Mourinhos comments so does he - and it’s on him to sort out....

Chelsea fans 2nd time around were heavily critical of his overly defensive tactics, even though it did gain results and we all saw the ever increasingly defensive setups he played as United manager. His two previous jobs were a sign of where he was heading as a manager.

Do you honestly think buying new players will allow him to get his ideas across better if that is what the issue is? Why can the new signings from last summer/Jan plus Lo Celso and Ndombele (who were never intrenched in the old way of playing) not take on board his instructions?

 

[harr1984]

You may have said this in your other posts and sorry if you have but what do you think we need in terms of players (who, what positions) to improve us?

I wouldn’t pretend to be that knowledgeable about player recruitment but on the face of it I think we still lack a couple of real battle hardened leaders that fight the way Mourinho likes to. I’d guess that he still wants a CB - I doubt he rates Sanchez much although vs Stoke and yesterday he was decent. I remember on the Amazon doc that he commented to his assistant in training about how good Dier was - I think he’s the only one he really relies on. Who that is, I’ve no idea? And a CM box to box, Lo Celso is always injured and N’Dombele can’t last 90 minutes currently and we need someone else of a similar quality who can get about the pitch and help move the ball forward - would love it to be Sabitzer. Maybe an AM too, as it seems Bale isn’t going to work out as we hoped? I think Bergwijn will come good and is young, but Moura and Lamela whilst do have their plus points are upgradable if the right players are available. Or maybe Dele can play his way back in, I don’t think he is past the point of no return yet....

 

[Finney Is Back]

Chelsea fans 2nd time around were heavily critical of his overly defensive tactics, even though it did gain results and we all saw the ever increasingly defensive setups he played as United manager. His two previous jobs were a sign of where he was heading as a manager.

Do you honestly think buying new players will allow him to get his ideas across better if that is what the issue is? Why can the new signings from last summer/Jan plus Lo Celso and Ndombele (who were never intrenched in the old way of playing) not take on board his instructions?

IMO the problem is that the team ARE carrying out his instructions. Jose is a vocal manager on the sidelines when his players aren’t doing what he wants and there is a distinct lack of Jose commanding his central defenders to play higher up the pitch. I’ve said it before several times but I will say again.... Even with a peak Hoddle or Zidane in our midfield instead of Winks or Sissoko or anyone would not make a difference as we are so deep with typically only one player in front of the ball when we get possession.

Our tactics are the manager’s doing. It worries me that he is starting to claim that it is the players responsibility and not his.

 

[harr1984]

Chelsea fans 2nd time around were heavily critical of his overly defensive tactics, even though it did gain results and we all saw the ever increasingly defensive setups he played as United manager. His two previous jobs were a sign of where he was heading as a manager.

Do you honestly think buying new players will allow him to get his ideas across better if that is what the issue is? Why can the new signings from last summer/Jan plus Lo Celso and Ndombele (who were never intrenched in the old way of playing) not take on board his instructions?

There are always players better suited for certain systems and managers aren’t there? The new signings aren’t first teamers just squad fillers except for Hojberg and Reguilon hence why I think he needs a couple more windows. As for Lo Celso and NDombele they have in the main been doing well for Mourinho and are constantly selected which shows Mourinho is happy with them - the issue is having them on the pitch or keeping them there and when they are absent our attacking play definitely tails off...

 

[DeanoAustin]

I wouldn’t pretend to be that knowledgeable about player recruitment but on the face of it I think we still lack a couple of real battle hardened leaders that fight the way Mourinho likes to. I’d guess that he still wants a CB - I doubt he rates Sanchez much although vs Stoke and yesterday he was decent. I remember on the Amazon doc that he commented to his assistant in training about how good Dier was - I think he’s the only one he really relies on. Who that is, I’ve no idea? And a CM box to box, Lo Celso is always injured and N’Dombele can’t last 90 minutes currently and we need someone else of a similar quality who can get about the pitch and help move the ball forward - would love it to be Sabitzer. Maybe an AM too, as it seems Bale isn’t going to work out as we hoped? I think Bergwijn will come good and is young, but Moura and Lamela whilst do have their plus points are upgradable if the right players are available. Or maybe Dele can play his way back in, I don’t think he is past the point of no return yet....

He certainly isn’t past the point of no return. It’d be stupid to consider firing him now for a whole host of reasons. But the signs aren’t good.

If he doesn’t have the players to play as he’d like, he’s got to change it. If these players aren’t capable of sitting on a one goal lead, he’s got to find a system that will produce points because that’s what Jose does - he wins.

 

[DeanoAustin]

IMO the problem is that the team ARE carrying out his instructions. Jose is a vocal manager on the sidelines when his players aren’t doing what he wants and there is a distinct lack of Jose commanding his central defenders to play higher up the pitch. I’ve said it before several times but I will say again.... Even with a peak Hoddle or Zidane in our midfield instead of Winks or Sissoko or anyone would not make a difference as we are so deep with typically only one player in front of the ball when we get possession.

Our tactics are the manager’s doing. It worries me that he is starting to claim that it is the players responsibility and not his.

I feel for Kane a bit at the moment. The amount of times I see him trudging across the halfway line doing defensive work is wrong. Teams now know that if you get numbers tight to him, he’s screwed. And teams can afford to get multiple players on him because he has little or no support. Worst case scenario, even if he does wriggle free, he’s so deep he can’t hurt them.

When Jose first dropped him deep, I thought it’d be a case that some days he’d be deep, others he’d be further forward and that’d cause teams a problem preparing to play against him. But it’s now predictable in the worst way because he’s miles from goal with no support most times.

He can’t be enjoying it at the moment. The lad is beyond talented as he’s shown again this season. He can do anything if you give him a chance but he can’t do it on his own. His manager is failing him at the moment.

 

[braineclipse]

They're right and what's most annoying is that it's entirely self inflicted - no reason why we can't put these matches to bed other than our own managers cowardice

Cowardice... OK then. We'll just have to wait until he's inevitably sacked then. Use this forum as a place to vent our frustration until it happens.

Wish i could see some light at the end of the tunnel because I honestly don't see what you are basing that on.

Question - if the person in charge was someone with no track record would you still think we were likely to improve under them based on what you have seen in the time they had been here? If not surely you can see there's more than a bit of blind faith to your position?

Answer - It would depend on the manager. Tim Sherwood it would be a hell no (as it was). If it was someone like Arteta (highly thought of, promising young manager) then it would be more of a maybe.

As it is Mourinho has his record, that makes it more than blind faith. He's improved every team he's been at, he's won trophies everywhere from Porto onwards. Even at United he got them the highest league position post Ferguson and the decline really only came when they refused to sign the player types he wanted.

We could obviously be the exception. The high water mark could have come less than a year into his reign here with us being temporarily top of the league early in a messy season. Even though he's always had a high point later on in his previous jobs. Even though he has a history of first getting a team solid then improving their number of goals that doesn't have to happen here. I think there's a good chance it happens here too, if that's blind faith to you then so be it.

I would much rather have seen us getting the number of points we have whilst being swashbuckling going forward, vulnerable at the back, high scoring games, pressing. Having conversations on here about if the defending could be sorted without sacrificing our attacking quality. It would be a lot more fun, but that doesn't mean it would be more likely to succeed.

 

[harr1984]

He certainly isn’t past the point of no return. It’d be stupid to consider firing him now for a whole host of reasons. But the signs aren’t good.

If he doesn’t have the players to play as he’d like, he’s got to change it. If these players aren’t capable of sitting on a one goal lead, he’s got to find a system that will produce points because that’s what Jose does - he wins.

Agree,but I actually meant I don’t think Dele is past the point of no return with Jose and could add some creativity in the AM positions...

 

[braineclipse]

I’m not here to argue against anyone dissatisfied with style of play etc The only reason Im personally willing to give it another season is because he needs longer to recruit fully the personnel he wants (coaches often say they need a few windows,this isn’t a Mourinho specific thing). Secondly I’ve seen Mourinho teams a play a lot mainly Madrid and Chelsea ones and they don’t just park the bus, they offered plenty going forward. Of course he had stellar players to work with, but he didn’t instruct them to just defend when going a goal down and only in specific big games was there a very defensive approach. The vast majority who were here under Poch are still here, so it’s a big change in style and mixing with the new players i personally want to see how it’s panning out in a years time when he has had further time to work on his methods with a squad (hopefully a proper pre season) understanding what he is asking. I just have a feeling we will become better balanced at some point in the not too distant future. And we are still in the mix in all competitions. But I do completely agree we need to do more going forward, judging by Mourinhos comments so does he - and it’s on him to sort out....

Most of the players that we have were here under Pochettino.

Worth remembering the players that aren't here, or are on an age related decline, from the peak Pochettino years too. Walker, Alderweireld, Vertonghen, Rose, Wanyama, Dembele Eriksen. Most of those would get into our strongest eleven right now. Arguably all, but I could see the arguments for Reguilon and possibly Hojbjerg. But it wouldn't be obvious that our current first choice players in those positions would get into our previous teams for any of those positions.

 

[billyiddo]

Cowardice... OK then. We'll just have to wait until he's inevitably sacked then. Use this forum as a place to vent our frustration until it happens. Answer - It would depend on the manager. Tim Sherwood it would be a hell no (as it was). If it was someone like Arteta (highly thought of, promising young manager) then it would be more of a maybe.

As it is Mourinho has his record, that makes it more than blind faith. He's improved every team he's been at, he's won trophies everywhere from Porto onwards. Even at United he got them the highest league position post Ferguson and the decline really only came when they refused to sign the player types he wanted.

We could obviously be the exception. The high water mark could have come less than a year into his reign here with us being temporarily top of the league early in a messy season. Even though he's always had a high point later on in his previous jobs. Even though he has a history of first getting a team solid then improving their number of goals that doesn't have to happen here. I think there's a good chance it happens here too, if that's blind faith to you then so be it.

I would much rather have seen us getting the number of points we have whilst being swashbuckling going forward, vulnerable at the back, high scoring games, pressing. Having conversations on here about if the defending could be sorted without sacrificing our attacking quality. It would be a lot more fun, but that doesn't mean it would be more likely to succeed.

So your position is Mourinho will turn it around because.... he's Mourinho and his track record, rather than anything we've seen during the last year or so? Fair enough - I'm more concerned with what he has shown for us and think that's more of a barometer for where we are heading than what he has achieved at other clubs.

 

[billyiddo]

There are always players better suited for certain systems and managers aren’t there? The new signings aren’t first teamers just squad fillers except for Hojberg and Reguilon hence why I think he needs a couple more windows. As for Lo Celso and NDombele they have in the main been doing well for Mourinho and are constantly selected which shows Mourinho is happy with them - the issue is having them on the pitch or keeping them there and when they are absent our attacking play definitely tails off...

I think the idea that the general approach will change with new signings a bit pie in the sky tbh, i think a manager will have shown what his tactics are by now and with Mourinho what we are seeing is more or less what we are going to get long term. Better players will in theory make it more efficient but i get the impression that means more focus on less defensive mistakes than more expansive attacking play. If he wanted us playing more on the front foot we would be.

 

[harr1984]

So your position is Mourinho will turn it around because.... he's Mourinho and his track record, rather than anything we've seen during the last year or so? Fair enough - I'm more concerned with what he has shown for us and think that's more of a barometer for where we are heading than what he has achieved at other clubs.

I’m not saying he will or won’t do anything. I’m saying I’m prepared to see how another year pans out considering the team he inherited needed a massive rebuild, he managed to get us European qualification with that squad which wasn’t a given with the position we was in at the time, needs more transfer windows to complete the rebuild, we have in patches shown good football at least and yes this needs to be improved on, and yes his track record of success does mean I’m willing to see how it pans out. Attacking performance without doubt has to be worked on but Semis of one cup, qualified for knockout stages of Europa League and six points off top spot after 15 games doesn’t exactly have me feeling the need to be overly concerned right now.

Apologies, I’ve just seen that wasn’t your reply to me....

 

[braineclipse]

So your position is Mourinho will turn it around because.... he's Mourinho and his track record, rather than anything we've seen during the last year or so? Fair enough - I'm more concerned with what he has shown for us and think that's more of a barometer for where we are heading than what he has achieved at other clubs.

I honestly have no idea what to say. I stated my position in my own words in the post you quoted. I didn't say that he will turn it around I said that I think there's a good chance.

I have a lot of respect and time for you and your opinions, but if we're talking past each other to this extent I think it's better we continue this conversation on a different day. If we leave it long enough I might even be in complete agreement with you.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I do want to add that wolves IMO were very bland
They have two great nippy wingers
The lump on the right who has reverted back to type (will be interesting if they change his baby option to help him get his previous magic form back)
And a kid up front who looked quite scared of anything physical
They do look like a team in transition now and it feels to me like their losing their strengths in doing so

 

[Mr Gogolak]

We're going through a rough patch but things could change pretty quickly. So far, Mourinho (or whoever is in charge of signing new players) has done a good job when it comes to bringing players in.

Quite frankly, it could be worse. My guess is the manager knows we're dropping too deep, particularly against lesser teams, and yesterday's back three was probably an attempt at correcting that situation. It didn't work very well but at least, he's trying something. We could look very different with a couple of new signings: a faster and better all-round player than Sanchez would allow us to press a little further up the pitch and we could do with an upgrade on Sissoko.

Changing the balance of the team might allow us to add Bale or a third attack-minded player upfront. I think that's what we're lacking at the moment, someone to take the focus off Kane and Son.

That said, I don't know if we can bring in another pair of starters in the current climate. Also, it can't be denied that we're not the most entertaining team in the league at the moment but, overall, we're doing a lot better than I expected after the Everton game.

 

[Pirate55]

IMO the problem is that the team ARE carrying out his instructions. Jose is a vocal manager on the sidelines when his players aren’t doing what he wants and there is a distinct lack of Jose commanding his central defenders to play higher up the pitch. I’ve said it before several times but I will say again.... Even with a peak Hoddle or Zidane in our midfield instead of Winks or Sissoko or anyone would not make a difference as we are so deep with typically only one player in front of the ball when we get possession.

Our tactics are the manager’s doing. It worries me that he is starting to claim that it is the players responsibility and not his.

Agreed. It is just tosh from Mou to say the players didn’t do what he wanted. If HE wanted to change the dynamic he would have left NDombele on and brought on Dele instead of one of the two left backs. This nonsense of 5 goals in 6 PL matches is solely down to him ( and I WAS a supporter of him). He needs to get his act together.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I do want to add that wolves IMO were very bland
They have two great nippy wingers
The lump on the right who has reverted back to type (will be interesting if they change his baby option to help him get his previous magic form back)
And a kid up front who looked quite scared of anything physical
They do look like a team in transition now and it feels to me like their losing their strengths in doing so

I agree somwhat here, they were quite bland and yet probably less bland than we were yesterday....

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I agree somwhat here, they were quite bland and yet probably less bland than we were yesterday....

Hell they have two quality attackers in Neto and Podence. Both miles better than someone like Moura for example
Fast and tricky and okay with their head up
Although Podence did suffer from an attack of the Grealishs and his ankles gave way a lot

 

[90291Spur]

Agreed. It is just tosh from Mou to say the players didn’t do what he wanted. If HE wanted to change the dynamic he would have left NDombele on and brought on Dele instead of one of the two left backs. This nonsense of 5 goals in 6 PL matches is solely down to him ( and I WAS a supporter of him). He needs to get his act together.

Maybe if the team wasn't doing what he wanted he could have got up of his arse and yelled at them and got them to do what he wanted. I'm not expert, but surely it's his fcukin job to get them to do what he wants them to do.

 

[thfcsteff]

They're right and what's most annoying is that it's entirely self inflicted - no reason why we can't put these matches to bed other than our own managers cowardice

This!!!

We have defeated ourselves in every game this season. Not one side has outplayed us toe-to-toe. When we've been swamped by the opposition it is because we are set up to let them have the ball.

Seriously, no-one has worked harder to undo us in matches than us! And it starts off the pitch.