Lucas Moura

[Raziel]

He doesn't have to be the bloody player he was at his peak to be getting a shot in this team - why do you keep making this argument? The player he was last season when he was last played regularly walks in front all the players currently playing in front of him. It doesn't matter that he is a poor imitation of the player he was - guess what? the whole team is a poor imitation of what it was at it's peak

Our 3rd highest goalscorer after 23 games has 3 goals and is a central midfielder

The 3 attacking players chosen ahead of him have 1 goal between them

Any argument you want for not selecting Dele is there to be had for not selecting the players currently being chosen ahead of him - except their 'form' is demonstratably much much worse

Mate, come on, simple question for you and @elltrev

- Who does he play in front of? who are these players he walks in front of?

Front line -> Kane = no, Son = no, WF that is expected to do defensive duty in front of FB = no (Lucas/Bergwijn are better at that)
Midfield -> PEH = no, Ndombele = no, +1 option as DM = no, +1 option as creative = no (Gio and recently Lamela have kept him out of the side)

The fact is, over the course of a season, he hasn't been able to keep Bergwijn, Gio, Lamela, Lucas, Winks or Sissoko out of the side (in that order), you can sit here and think that one of the most pragmatic managers in world football is keeping him out because of "reasons" or he simply isn't fudging good enough in training, nor is he good enough (right now) when gets on the pitch to the point that those players above keep him off even the bench most games ..

 

[billyiddo]

Mate, come on, simple question for you and @elltrev

- Who does he play in front of? who are these players he walks in front of?

Font line -> Kane = no, Son = no, WF that is expected to do defensive duty in front of FB = no (Lucas/Bergwijn are better at that)
Midfield -> PEH = no, Ndombele = no, +1 option as DM = no, +1 option as creative = no (Gio and recently Lamela have kept him out of the side)

The fact is, over the course of a season, he hasn't been able to keep Bergwijn, Lamela, Lucas, Winks or Sissoko out of the side (in that order), you can sit here and think that one of the most pragmatic managers in world football is keeping him out because of "reasons" or he simply isn't fudging good enough in training, nor is he good enough when gets on the pitch to the point that those players above keep him off even the bench most games ..

4231 should be our starting formation and he should be one of the options for the '3' - he had his best seasons for us in that area of the pitch alongside Kane and Son (and Eriksen) so to argue he doesn't fit or suit the team just doesn't really stack up. The only guarenteed player at this moment in that 3 should be Son - between Bergwijn, Lamela, Moura, GLC (feels like im missing someone? Ndombele - maybe though i prefer him deeper) the other two positions should be up for grabs until a point that someone steps up and claims the position as his own. Currently 3 of those players have had ample opportunity to show themselves good enough, but they haven't - time to give our 3rd highest goal contributer from last season a run in the team.

so there's your answer - right now he should be getting his run in the team as over a combined 2000 minutes the other options haven't done enough, who should he be in front of right now? every attacking player bar Son & Kane. if after a run in the team he shows himself no better then them then fine we can reassess but if he comes in and picks up where he left off last season then he will be an improvement and the team will benefit

edit : Bale was the other one

 

[Raziel]

4231 should be our starting formation and he should be one of the options for the '3' - he had his best seasons for us in that area of the pitch alongside Kane and Son (and Eriksen) so to argue he doesn't fit or suit the team just doesn't really stack up. The only guarenteed player at this moment in that 3 should be Son - between Bergwijn, Lamela, Moura, GLC (feels like im missing someone? Ndombele - maybe though i prefer him deeper) the other two positions should be up for grabs until a point that someone steps up and claims the position as his own. Currently 3 of those players have had ample opportunity to show themselves good enough, but they haven't - time to give our 3rd highest goal contributer from last season a run in the team.


edit : Bale was the other one

In that model (that you are thinking of) Dele played center/closest to Kane, Son was pushed wide and Eriksen was the supplier (capable of popping the ball over the top to runners)

The issue is Son is a better player, so has earned the right to be the player closest to Kane and we no longer have Eriksen (Ndombele's passing style is very different)

So again Kane, Son, Ndombele, PEH are given

So two slots open
- 1st slot in Jose's system is RW/LW who is expected to be a workhorse and protect/overlap with FB, Lucas or Bergwijn are better at that game, and Jose prefers even Sissoko over Dele here
- 2nd slot is CM, either defensive against better sides or more creative, this is really Gio's intended role, it probably is the best chance for Dele, but Lamela has/is doing better than him and Jose has played Winks here over Dele.

All opinions but here's my summary

- He has two places to fit, either next to Kane or in CM
- Son is better at the close to Kane role
- The CM role requires him to manage the game, control the tempo, demand the ball, something he simply doesn't do (closest I have ever seen is against Marine where he took on the responsibility)

He'll play today, and no offense, against brick opposition, if he can't impose himself on them (and he hasn't in the vast majority of these games), he simply doesn't deserve a PL shot.

 

[elltrev]

Mate, come on, simple question for you and @elltrev

- Who does he play in front of? who are these players he walks in front of?

Front line -> Kane = no, Son = no, WF that is expected to do defensive duty in front of FB = no (Lucas/Bergwijn are better at that)
Midfield -> PEH = no, Ndombele = no, +1 option as DM = no, +1 option as creative = no (Gio and recently Lamela have kept him out of the side)

The fact is, over the course of a season, he hasn't been able to keep Bergwijn, Gio, Lamela, Lucas, Winks or Sissoko out of the side (in that order), you can sit here and think that one of the most pragmatic managers in world football is keeping him out because of "reasons" or he simply isn't fudging good enough in training, nor is he good enough (right now) when gets on the pitch to the point that those players above keep him off even the bench most games ..

Personally I'd have liked to see him get gametime at #10 (so Ndombele could play where he's best, in CM, instead of Sissoko). For context, here's a comparison of Ndombele and Dele over the last 2 seasons when playing attacking midfield:



And/or as one of the two attacking midfielders when we've played 3 at the back (four times this season), ahead of Bergwijn / Lamela / Moura.

But I'm going to duck out at this point, as I don't think there's anything I could do or say to have any impact on your opinion, so it's all a bit pointless.

 

[billyiddo]

Raz why are you so opposed to giving him a chance when the players in his position are not playing well or contributing? This is an obvious weak area of our team play atm hence why Mourinho is even commenting on it. You seem happy for the alternatives to have endless games where they continually offer nothing yet here you are demanding a good performance from Dele in a rare outing in a cup game just so he can even be considered, with the threat of being frozen out if he doesn't play well - and you have the front to say you aren't arguing with an agenda.

i have to agree with eeltrev here that there seems little point in continuing a discussion as you don't seem interested in actually giving the player a chance and are just looking for reasons to not play him.

 

[harr1984]

4231 should be our starting formation and he should be one of the options for the '3' - he had his best seasons for us in that area of the pitch alongside Kane and Son (and Eriksen) so to argue he doesn't fit or suit the team just doesn't really stack up. The only guarenteed player at this moment in that 3 should be Son - between Bergwijn, Lamela, Moura, GLC (feels like im missing someone? Ndombele - maybe though i prefer him deeper) the other two positions should be up for grabs until a point that someone steps up and claims the position as his own. Currently 3 of those players have had ample opportunity to show themselves good enough, but they haven't - time to give our 3rd highest goal contributer from last season a run in the team.

so there's your answer - right now he should be getting his run in the team as over a combined 2000 minutes the other options haven't done enough, who should he be in front of right now? every attacking player bar Son & Kane. if after a run in the team he shows himself no better then them then fine we can reassess but if he comes in and picks up where he left off last season then he will be an improvement and the team will benefit

edit : Bale was the other one

I find myself agreeing with both sides on Dele. I love him, and he still shows he’s got the talent. But the question is where does he fit in now, he seems to be quite a niche player in that you have to set up formation that suits him. Problem is we are currently getting the best out of Son and Kane, is Dele worth rocking that boat for as Son has effectively replaced Dele in what used to be a good understanding between Dele/Kane that reaped rewards in Deles best season(s). He could still be rotated between Kane and Son more regardless, if his attitude is right as we don’t know what is going on behind closed doors. Poch moved Dele to CM, and whilst it was originally due to injuries he never moved him back to that number 10 role which I find curious. On paper he has more talent than a Lamela or Moura as one of the other AMs but he has only ever really impressed playing in that 10 role which Kane/Son rotate. So either Dele learns to play the AM role better or Mourinho continues to pick Moura etc and Dele can best hope for being rotated at the 10 role. If we have full backs who are attacking ie Reguilon and Aurier then Dele could still work as an AM who can come inside as the FBs would offer the width. We really should at least try and find a role for him though, as it’s horrible to think we could sell someone with his talent and then persist with Lamela etc....

 

[Raziel]

Raz why are you so opposed to giving him a chance when the players in his position are not playing well? you're happy to see endless games where Lamela/Moura/Bergwijn offer nothing yet here you are demanding a good performance in a rare outing so he can even be considered.

i have to agree with eeltrev here that there seems little point in continuing a discussion as you don't seem interesting in actually giving the player a chance.

Mate, I think we are all talking past each other, so maybe it dies here .. all ok

You and @elltrev keep thinking there is some AM role in the side that Dele fits (As the 3rd best Scorer/Assists player in team), I'm not seeing it

The Bergwijn/Lucas role is a wide midfielder that has more defensive duties (protect the FB) and be a workhorse
The Gio/Lamela (recently)/Winks role is a midfield role to help with possession, manage the tempo, make the pass to the assister (usually to Kane deep now), you can argue if those players have done a decent job in that role, but again it simply isn't something suited to Dele.

Now if we play tonight with Vinicius up front and we need a player to be close/run off him, sure play Dele there.
We could try him in the CM role (ala Marine) but against top level opposition I don't see it.

So it's not I don't want to give him a a change, if the side had room for a floating AM that is expecting to score/assist and plays off the main striker = sure
In the two roles I described above? maybe, maybe the CM role, but it doesn't play to his strength and the other players bring something more (even if it's just workrate, pace or attitude)

 

[billyiddo]

Dele is more than a match for Moura and Bergwijn defensively unless i have been watching a different player these past few years.

the defensive side of the game is hard to quantify with numbers but the link below shows Dele last season v Bergwijn last season and this season and shows him contributing the same or more sorts of numbers for defesive actions.

https://www.squawka.com/en/comparison-matrix/?compare=FQFyYz07Hmapg2LDL9H4l

im not basing my opinion on this but just trying to show that Dele does do his part defensively - frankly im surprised that anyone who has watched him thinks he doesn't but there you go

 

[90291Spur]

Dele is more than a match for Moura and Bergwijn defensively unless i have been watching a different player these past few years.

the defensive side of the game is hard to quantify with numbers but the link below shows Dele last season v Bergwijn last season and this season and shows him contributing the same or more sorts of numbers.

https://www.squawka.com/en/comparison-matrix/?compare=FQFyYz07Hmapg2LDL9H4l

im not basing my opinion on this but just trying to show that Dele does do his part defensively - frankly im surprised that anyone who has watched him thinks he doesn't but there you go

Dele needs to scamper more. That way Jose can clearly see how hard he works. If you aren't scampering, dashing, rushing and scuttling, our winning boss who always wins will think you're a lazy flick merchant.

 

[elltrev]

Mate, I think we are all talking past each other, so maybe it dies here .. all ok

You and @elltrev keep thinking there is some AM role in the side that Dele fits (As the 3rd best Scorer/Assists player in team), I'm not seeing it

The Bergwijn/Lucas role is a wide midfielder that has more defensive duties (protect the FB) and be a workhorse
The Gio/Lamela (recently)/Winks role is a midfield role to help with possession, manage the tempo, make the pass to the assister (usually to Kane deep now), you can argue if those players have done a decent job in that role, but again it simply isn't something suited to Dele.

Now if we play tonight with Vinicius up front and we need a player to be close/run off him, sure play Dele there.
We could try him in the CM role (ala Marine) but against top level opposition I don't see it.

So it's not I don't want to give him a a change, if the side had room for a floating AM that is expecting to score/assist and plays off the main striker = sure
In the two roles I described above? maybe, maybe the CM role, but it doesn't play to his strength and the other players bring something more (even if it's just workrate, pace or attitude)

I can't resist!

What's this 'Gio / Lamela / Winks' role you've made up?! They have 14 starts between them, compared to 33 starts between Ndombele and Sissoko.

Most of the season we've played with Sissoko in CM and Ndombele in AM. I'm saying we could have been seeing more of Ndombele in CM and Alli in AM (which is exactly where Mourinho played Dele last season, to good effect). More recently Ndombele's shifted to CM and we've either played three at the back (where Alli could play either of the two AMs) or Moura as the #10 (which Dele could play instead).

 

[Raziel]

I can't resist!

What's this 'Gio / Lamela / Winks' role you've made up?! They have 14 starts between them, compared to 33 starts between Ndombele and Sissoko.

Most of the season we've played with Sissoko in CM and Ndombele in AM. I'm saying we could have been seeing more of Ndombele in CM and Alli in AM (which is exactly where Mourinho played Dele last season, to good effect). More recently Ndombele's shifted to CM and we've either played three at the back (where Alli could play either of the two AMs) or Moura as the #10 (which Dele could play instead).

You answered your own question?

- We play 3 CMs, 2AMs +Kane
- Earlier in season -> 2 of the CMs were more defensive minded (PEH +Sissoko, occasionally tried Winks) with Ndombele higher
- More recently -> PEH + Ndombele deeper, with Lamela higher (we tried Winks there, we also tried Gio once or twice before he got injured)

We played Lucas as a #10 in the PL?

Circles mate, just circles in this argument

- You think Dele would outscore Lucas/Bergwijn/other AM in the current side (and will point to their goal output)

I'm saying the reason the 3rd AM doesn't score is because of how we play, not the player, and if you go that route, other players are better.

Despite @billyiddo's opta view, I'd argue go look at Bergwijn's role in the game against City that we won 2-0, tell me you think Dele would be a better fit?

 

[billyiddo]

Dele not being as suited to the the role Bergwijn played in an ultra low block v City is neither here nor there with regards to the wider argument - we don't play that way regularly. Id argue he can play a disciplined midfield role but even if you disagree i don't think the handful of games a season we'd be expected to play that way means that Dele shouldn't be getting a run out the other 95% of the season.

If the tactics are the issue then guess what? the tactics are wrong, perhaps that has something to do with why we we barely score more than a goal a game since Old Trafford.

- You think Dele would outscore Lucas/Bergwijn/other AM in the current side (and will point to their goal output)

that isn't even a debate - you'd be hard pushed to find an attacking player in the league who wouldn't score more than a solitary goal in over 2000 minutes of football in this team.

 

[elltrev]

You answered your own question?

- We play 3 CMs, 2AMs +Kane
- Earlier in season -> 2 of the CMs were more defensive minded (PEH +Sissoko, occasionally tried Winks) with Ndombele higher
- More recently -> PEH + Ndombele deeper, with Lamela higher (we tried Winks there, we also tried Gio once or twice before he got injured)

We played Lucas as a #10 in the PL?

Circles mate, just circles in this argument

- You think Dele would outscore Lucas/Bergwijn/other AM in the current side (and will point to their goal output)

I'm saying the reason the 3rd AM doesn't score is because of how we play, not the player, and if you go that route, other players are better.

Despite @billyiddo's opta view, I'd argue go look at Bergwijn's role in the game against City that we won 2-0, tell me you think Dele would be a better fit?

A) I disagree with your characterising of our system as 4-3-3 (i.e. 3 CMs). I just picked three random matches against weakish teams (Leeds, Brighton and WBA), and in all three you can see Ndombele (28) is playing as an AM - closer to the other three attacking players than to the two CMs.







(He's behind #23 in this last one).

B) Even if I had accepted your characterisation of our system, that's still a choice that Jose would have made - he could still instead have played Ndombele in CM and Alli as a #10, like he did last season - a perfectly reasonable system. (And one that might have led to more goals than 36 - the 9th best in the league (11th best in xG).

C) Yes, Moura has been playing #10 in two of the last three matches - see recent WBA and Man C games below (Moura is #27):





(Bearing in mind Moura shifted out wide at HT against City, when Sissoko came on and Ndombele moved further forward - not sure how these diagrams handle those kinds of changes).

 

[parklane1]

I have no agenda with Dele, I just no longer see where he fits for us, if we play two up front Son is better than him, if we play 3, the 3rd player usually goes wide (he's not great there), in midfield a lot of players in the squad make more sense.

He's not improving, you can see that, the numbers say it, he's still a very talented player that is a asset that could fetch money that would improve the side.

Sorry for cutting your post which i agree with, but these two points are the ones that believe are the most relevant to Alli situation. I have thought for a while that (imo) it is really hard to see how his talents fit into our team at this moment and i really do not see how/why any manager has to change plans just to suit one player. I fully understand that there are some who will disagree with that but Jose seems to see it that way as well.

You are right he is not improving and there is the problem, he is a VERY talented player who has certain skills but they do not fit at this time IMO and seeing has most of us believe that we need to strengthen our team he is a player who we probably can get a good price for and put that towards the players we DO need.

 

[Raziel]

Sorry for cutting your post which i agree with, but these two points are the ones that believe are the most relevant to Alli situation. I have thought for a while that (imo) it is really hard to see how his talents fit into our team at this moment and i really do not see how/why any manager has to change plans just to suit one player. I fully understand that there are some who will disagree with that but Jose seems to see it that way as well.

You are right he is not improving and there is the problem, he is a VERY talented player who has certain skills but they do not fit at this time IMO and seeing has most of us believe that we need to strengthen our team he is a player who we probably can get a good price for and put that towards the players we DO need.

Yep, been trying to explain that

- Do I believe in the current way we play (managers choice), Dele would be effective = no
- Do I believe if we changed the way we play to accommodate Dele he could be more effective and likely outscore anyone outside of Kane/Son = yes
- Do I believe that making that change would be better for the team = no

The main point is the 3rd one, which obviously Jose believes, I'd add another one

- Do I believe the current tactical setup is ideal = no

The thing is, I'd rather something along the lines of a 4-4-1-1 as I think until we have a better CB pair, leaving our CM space with this 4-2-3-1 leaves parts of the midfield where we can easily be outnumbered and passed around ..

Anyway, lets hope Dele plays tonight and scores a hatrick!

 

[Finney Is Back]

Mate, come on, simple question for you and @elltrev

- Who does he play in front of? who are these players he walks in front of?

Front line -> Kane = no, Son = no, WF that is expected to do defensive duty in front of FB = no (Lucas/Bergwijn are better at that)
Midfield -> PEH = no, Ndombele = no, +1 option as DM = no, +1 option as creative = no (Gio and recently Lamela have kept him out of the side)

The fact is, over the course of a season, he hasn't been able to keep Bergwijn, Gio, Lamela, Lucas, Winks or Sissoko out of the side (in that order), you can sit here and think that one of the most pragmatic managers in world football is keeping him out because of "reasons" or he simply isn't fudging good enough in training, nor is he good enough (right now) when gets on the pitch to the point that those players above keep him off even the bench most games ..

Who should Dele play instead of in our present team? Anyone who plays in the 3 behind the striker other than Son. He is better than Lamela, better than Moura and better than Bergwijn.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Sorry for cutting your post which i agree with, but these two points are the ones that believe are the most relevant to Alli situation. I have thought for a while that (imo) it is really hard to see how his talents fit into our team at this moment and i really do not see how/why any manager has to change plans just to suit one player. I fully understand that there are some who will disagree with that but Jose seems to see it that way as well.

You are right he is not improving and there is the problem, he is a VERY talented player who has certain skills but they do not fit at this time IMO and seeing has most of us believe that we need to strengthen our team he is a player who we probably can get a good price for and put that towards the players we DO need.

When Mourinho is playing Ndombele with Hojbjerg as the 2 deeper midfielders, I would say that Dele is (by quite a wide margin) the best option to play in the centre of the 3 in front of them.

 

[Raziel]

Since this is a Lucas thread

 

[parklane1]

Since this is a Lucas thread

Great goal.

 

[elltrev]

Amazing goal, brilliant to watch.