Lucas Moura

[elltrev]

And just to provide some evidence / context for these players' contributions the last two seasons, here's comparative stats for goals, assists, and being part of the buildup - just for PL matches where these players have started in any attacking midfield position. First the last two seasons combined, then last season only.

Last two seasons combined








Last season only

 

[Bedfordspurs]

And just to provide some evidence / context for these players' contributions the last two seasons, here's comparative stats for goals, assists, and being part of the buildup - just for PL matches where these players have started in any attacking midfield position. First the last two seasons combined, then last season only.

Last two seasons combined

View attachment 11024

View attachment 11025

View attachment 11023


Last season only

View attachment 11020

View attachment 11021

View attachment 11022

I wonder how much do that is skewed by the period straight after Jose joined and we saw dele, not his brother

 

[Baleforce]

it's also only half of the game, footballers have to defend and attack

 

[P.D.]

Fairly simple answer is that even when Moura plays badly and gives the ball away he still works (or at least appears to) harder than Dele in terms of tracking back, pressing etc.

 

[parklane1]

Fairly simple answer is that even when Moura plays badly and gives the ball away he still works (or at least appears to) harder than Dele in terms of tracking back, pressing etc.

tickle my balls with a feather, like him or not Moura is a team player where as for All he seems to play for himself ( at least it seems that way now).

 

[elltrev]

I don't really recall anyone criticising Dele's work rate or defensive contributions before this season? Indeed, in 18/19 I remember he played almost as many minutes in central midfield as he did attacking midfield, due to our injuries at the time - without being pulled up for a lack of work rate or teamplay in that position.*

So my point continues to be that it's only this season where he's looked a shadow of his former self, and I think it's very reasonable to suggest that Mourinho might at least share some of the blame for that in the way that he has managed him.

*For those who don't think stats are meaningless, I remember this analysis that suggested he was a pressing moster, as well as winning his fair share of tackles and interceptions:

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I don't really recall anyone criticising Dele's work rate or defensive contributions before this season? Indeed, in 18/19 I remember he played almost as many minutes in central midfield as he did attacking midfield, due to our injuries at the time - without being pulled up for a lack of work rate or teamplay in that position.*

So my point continues to be that it's only this season where he's looked a shadow of his former self, and I think it's very reasonable to suggest that Mourinho might at least share some of the blame for that in the way that he has managed him.

*For those who don't think stats are meaningless, I remember this analysis that suggested he was a pressing moster, as well as winning his fair share of tackles and interceptions:

View attachment 11026

In 18/19 people accepted him filling a gap to help the team. Before that season when we were an aggressive side he did brilliantly
Since that season he has been average
He doesn’t fit the midfield role and up front we have been playing a 3. The 3 we had were doing well enough to get us top of the league for a period
Now we have gone for a 4-2-3-1 there is arguably scope for Dele to show what he can do in the 3 like he did before. He just needs to take his chances when they come, even if it’s brief cameos.

 

[billyiddo]

This season Moura + Lamela + Bergwijn have played 2109 minutes between them, scoring 1 goal and making 3 assists (between them) or 703 minutes per goal involvement.

Dele has played 100 minutes across 5 games and got 0 goals 0 assists.

If we look at last season for Dele as well that then brings him up to 1940 minutes (including this sesson) which makes it a good comparison to the game time the 3 players in front of him have had to impress.
8 goals and 4 assists in that time, which works out to a goal involvment every 161 minutes.

12 vs 4
161 vs 703

He's literally 3 times (+) as effective in a comparable amount of match time as the 3 (!) players in front of him combined

And people are sat there saying he hasn't shown enough with the time he's had - well what the hell does that say about the players in front who have done diddly squat over an even longer period?

 

[Bullet]

This season Moura + Lamela + Bergwijn have played 2109 minutes between them, scoring 1 goal and making 3 assists (between them) or 703 minutes per goal involvement.

Dele has played 100 minutes across 5 games and got 0 goals 0 assists.

If we look at last season for Dele as well that then brings him up to 1940 minutes (including this sesson) which makes it a good comparison to the game time the 3 players in front of him have had to impress.
8 goals and 4 assists in that time, which works out to a goal involvment every 161 minutes.

12 vs 4
161 vs 703

He's non-figuratively 3 times (+) as effective in a comparable amount of match time as the 3 (!) players in front of him combined

And people are sat there saying he hasn't shown enough with the time he's had - well what the hell does that say about the players in front who have done diddly squat over an even longer period?

Yes but he's only 9 times better... I demand that he is 10 times better, purely for that moustache.

 

[Baleforce]

This season Moura + Lamela + Bergwijn have played 2109 minutes between them, scoring 1 goal and making 3 assists (between them) or 703 minutes per goal involvement.

Dele has played 100 minutes across 5 games and got 0 goals 0 assists.

If we look at last season for Dele as well that then brings him up to 1940 minutes (including this sesson) which makes it a good comparison to the game time the 3 players in front of him have had to impress.
8 goals and 4 assists in that time, which works out to a goal involvment every 161 minutes.

12 vs 4
161 vs 703

He's non-figuratively 3 times (+) as effective in a comparable amount of match time as the 3 (!) players in front of him combined

And people are sat there saying he hasn't shown enough with the time he's had - well what the hell does that say about the players in front who have done diddly squat over an even longer period?

those numbers only cover half of the game, what about the defensive contributions?

 

[Raziel]

those numbers only cover half of the game, what about the defensive contributions?

Exactly, players are judged on

- What they do in training (we simply don't know, but Dele obviously had a reputation there)
- What they do offensively
- What they do defensively
- What they do without the ball

Dele has not only be poor, but if we were to use the pure stats view, he's been pretty much declining since 2016/17, not sure how more game time 4 fudging years later is going to change something. For what it's worth, Lucas has more combined goals in the last 3 seasons than Dele ..

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

This season Moura + Lamela + Bergwijn have played 2109 minutes between them, scoring 1 goal and making 3 assists (between them) or 703 minutes per goal involvement.
period?

Jesus fcuking christ that's bad.

 

[billyiddo]

those numbers only cover half of the game, what about the defensive contributions?

What about the other half? Are you telling me over that same period of minutes snd beyond that Dele hasn't shown himself to be a good player off the ball wrt defensive contributions/pressing/turnovers? Or msking smart runs pulling opposition defenses out of position?

It's an easy get out for those of you who want to back Mourinho and dismiss the player as it's not as quantifiable as attacking contributions but he's a player known for doing more than his fair share of work off the ball.

 

[billyiddo]

For what it's worth, Lucas has more combined goals in the last 3 seasons than Dele ..

21 v 20 in Dele's favour over the last 3 league seasons by my count with Moura having about 15 games worth of minutes more under his belt. Fwiw...

Tbf that's closer than i thought it would be.


My post was using the form chat of the last couple of pages as a starting off point, as the argument appears to be Dele hasn't done enough in the time given to show himself worth a place - the players picked in front of him have played a hell of a lot of games this season contributing next to nothing in the process - so i looked back at what Dele had done over a similar time frame and found out that funnily enough he'd contributed a lot more - so there's the form argument out the window.

 

[Baleforce]

What about the other half? Are you telling me over that same period of minutes snd beyond that Dele hasn't shown himself to be a good player off the ball wrt defensive contributions/pressing/turnovers? Or msking smart runs pulling opposition defenses out of position?

It's an easy get out for those of you who want to back Mourinho and dismiss the player as it's not as quantifiable as attacking contributions but he's a player known for doing more than his fair share of work off the ball.

I'm not dismissing the player, I think he has shown those things, but let's see the numbers to back it up.

 

[billyiddo]

I'm not dismissing the player, I think he has shown those things, but let's see the numbers to back it up.

I don't think there are comparable defensive stats that reflect that side like Goals & Assists do for the attacking side of things - there are some that you can use i suppose but would just open a can of worms more than likely.

 

[elltrev]

Exactly, players are judged on

- What they do in training (we simply don't know, but Dele obviously had a reputation there)
- What they do offensively
- What they do defensively
- What they do without the ball

Dele has not only be poor, but if we were to use the pure stats view, he's been pretty much declining since 2016/17, not sure how more game time 4 fudging years later is going to change something. For what it's worth, Lucas has more combined goals in the last 3 seasons than Dele ..

I would say that stat is worth nothing, as it doesn’t take into account minutes played (or assists).

Dele was also much better last season than the season before, despite playing about a third of his games in central midfield or centre forward. His minutes per combined goals and assists since 16/17 are:

16/17: 122 (played about 11% of games in CM)
17/18: 157 (played about 15% of games in CM or up front)
18/19: 230 (played about 42% of games in CM)
19/20: 155 (played about 29% of games in CM or up front)

So your argument that he’s been ‘pretty much declining since 16/17’ just isn’t true, especially when you take into account the positions he’s been playing.

All of the above just makes me think that you’re looking for any evidence possible to support your own view, no matter how skewed, rather than looking at all evidence with an open mind.

 

[Raziel]

I would say that stat is worth nothing, as it doesn’t take into account minutes played (or assists).

Dele was also much better last season than the season before, despite playing about a third of his games in central midfield or centre forward. His minutes per combined goals and assists since 16/17 are:

16/17: 122 (played about 11% of games in CM)
17/18: 157 (played about 15% of games in CM or up front)
18/19: 230 (played about 42% of games in CM)
19/20: 155 (played about 29% of games in CM or up front)

So your argument that he’s been ‘pretty much declining since 16/17’ just isn’t true, especially when you take into account the positions he’s been playing.

All of the above just makes me think that you’re looking for any evidence possible to support your own view, no matter how skewed, rather than looking at all evidence with an open mind.

Mate, I actually think Dele is a very talented player (one of the biggest problems is the game for a long time was too easy for him), I have no real agenda against him as you seem to be indicating, what I was saying is

- Lots of people still think Dele is the kid of his second season with us, he simply isn't (I'll talk to your point about minutes)
- Lots of people are dying to sell Lucas, say he's brick, not good enough for the bench (just go back through this thread)

Yet, when you look at them post Dele's best season, their numbers are really close, despite Lucas usually being the one asked to play the more disciplined role, so who has bias here?

To your numbers

- His best season is 16/17 isn't it?
- Downhill next two seasons, a little better last season but nowhere near his first? = how am I off here?

Why isn't he getting game time, why isn't he being played up front? anecdotally (what you see with your eyes), do you really believe Dele is anywhere near the player he was in 16/17?

I have no agenda with Dele, I just no longer see where he fits for us, if we play two up front Son is better than him, if we play 3, the 3rd player usually goes wide (he's not great there), in midfield a lot of players in the squad make more sense.

He's not improving, you can see that, the numbers say it, he's still a very talented player that is a asset that could fetch money that would improve the side.

 

[billyiddo]

He doesn't have to be the bloody player he was at his peak to be getting a shot in this team - why do you keep making this argument? The player he was last season when he was last played regularly walks in front all the players currently playing in front of him. It doesn't matter that he is a poor imitation of the player he was - guess what? the whole team is a poor imitation of what it was at it's peak

Our 3rd highest goalscorer after 23 games has 3 goals and is a central midfielder

The 3 attacking players chosen ahead of him have 1 goal between them

Any argument you want for not selecting Dele is there to be had for not selecting the players currently being chosen ahead of him - except their 'form' is demonstratably much much worse

 

[elltrev]

Mate, I actually think Dele is a very talented player (one of the biggest problems is the game for a long time was too easy for him), I have no real agenda against him as you seem to be indicating, what I was saying is

- Lots of people still think Dele is the kid of his second season with us, he simply isn't (I'll talk to your point about minutes)
- Lots of people are dying to sell Lucas, say he's brick, not good enough for the bench (just go back through this thread)

Yet, when you look at them post Dele's best season, their numbers are really close, despite Lucas usually being the one asked to play the more disciplined role, so who has bias here?

To your numbers

- His best season is 16/17 isn't it?
- Downhill next two seasons, a little better last season but nowhere near his first? = how am I off here?

Why isn't he getting game time, why isn't he being played up front? anecdotally (what you see with your eyes), do you really believe Dele is anywhere near the player he was in 16/17?

I have no agenda with Dele, I just no longer see where he fits for us, if we play two up front Son is better than him, if we play 3, the 3rd player usually goes wide (he's not great there), in midfield a lot of players in the squad make more sense.

He's not improving, you can see that, the numbers say it, he's still a very talented player that is a asset that could fetch money that would improve the side.

I only imply an agenda because it seems to me that you continue to interpret any evidence in a skewed way. To take your points 1 by 1:

- I'm not sure anyone is trying to claim that Dele's performance in recent seasons is as good as his performance in his second season with us. (I'm certainly not).
- Fair enough - personally I'm not arguing that - I think Moura is good enough to be a squad player, but not a starter.
- Moura and Dele's numbers aren't really close (when you also look at assists and buildup, and take into account minutes played). If we just look at the last three seasons (i.e. ruling out Dele's best season and the following one), you get:



So similar on goals, but Dele getting twice as many assists and being 50% more involved in build-up.

If you then only look at starts in attacking midfield (so ignoring games where Dele played CM or either of them played up front, out of position):



So roughly twice as many goals, assists, and involvement in build-up.

- When looking at Dele's season-by-season numbers I posted, you say they were 'a little better last season but nowhere near his first'. When in reality 155 (last season) is basically the same as 157 (17/18), and much closer to 122 (16/17) than 230 (18/19). It's that kind of thing that makes me say you're continuing to look at this evidence in a skewed way for whatever reason - in this case that's just a mathematical fact that you are.

- I think Dele's not getting gametime this season because Jose saw something in his attitude / mentality that he didn't like (rightly or wrongly), and they haven't been able to see eye to eye since.

- I think the team would have been better off this season with a happy / motivated Dele playing more often, when the alternatives are Moura / Bergwijn / Lamela. I think Mourinho could maybe have managed Dele better to get him more happy / motivated (though I appreciate none of us can be sure on that either way, so I suggest we leave that point there).

- Based on where we're at now, with Dele having barely played and seemingly not being happy here / under Jose, I agree the best option is to sell him in the summer (indeed, it seems ridiculous to me that we didn't send him on loan in January).