Is this the real problem at Spurs?

[superfaisty]

reading through another depressing onto where everyone's talking about how we are basically everyone's bitch when it comes to teams that need 3 points. Got me thinking, why is it that inferiors teams on paper keep turning us over?


One word for you: desire.

We don't have enough of it, other teams that show some always seem to do us over.

Okay maybe I am oversimplifying but if we actually played with a bit of desire I honestly think we would win more games. Skill and athleticism are great qualities but if you don't have desire your not likely to progress to the top.

And for me desire is the one thing that poch needs from his players to get his system to work.

That's why the young players work in his system. They typically have that hunger that thirst that desire that older better paid 'professional' usually lose (if they ever had it in the first place).

That's why poch needs new blood in the team but also why it will take a few transfer windows to achieve the metamorphosis from mid table obscurity to top 4 challenger.

What do other people think?

 

[Pirate55]

You are 100% on the button. Too many our players don't have it. Ade, Pauli, Verts, Lamela, Eriksen and Lennon to name a few. When the going gets tough, these guys go missing. Too many passengers. We can maybe carry a Lamela or an Eriksen, but not half a half-hearted team. Much pruning needs to be done.

 

[chicken_badge]

You are 100% on the button. Too many our players don't have it. Ade, Pauli, Verts, Lamela, Eriksen and Lennon to name a few. When the going gets tough, these guys go missing. Too many passengers. We can maybe carry a Lamela or an Eriksen, but not half a half-hearted team. Much pruning needs to be done.

Lamela? Nah, don't agree there; refuse to judge him on last season and this season he has been far more involved. Lennon too, far more bite than most of the rest of the squad. One of the few players who will put it about. His problem is how he is deployed, yes he maybe ought to make more of it, but he is a very unique player in terms of ability and physique and I do think that if we put him anywhere other than out and out right winger it just wont click for him.

But sure, I agree the likes of Adebayor, Paulinho, Vertonghen, Eriksen go missing in big games too often, rather than stamping their authority. I'd also add in Moussa. Vertonghen, his head still ain't right. I wonder if Levy's pulled a Hotel California on him and this is the way he is dealing with it, just short of Winston Bogarde.

However, I disagree with any need for a cull. Been there, done that. This squad is, by and large, workable. Paulinho and Soldado maybe need a line drawn under them Darren Bent style, but even they could work.... both are quality players. It's who we bring in to stoke the fire. Although it was short lived, Davids and Palacios both did that job for us, got us ticking. VDV wasn't a ball winner, but again instant passion. Scott Parker wasn't blood and thunder, but just a good old fashioned pro, lead by example, consistent. All of them got moved on at the right time (OK, maybe even a little too late) - but more importantly, they got brought in at the right time too.

We need a new striker. Just like United did with Larson a few years ago. And shipping out Soldado is probably a necessity on that. But otherwise, the quality is there, and I do think there is a beast in Vertonghen, Dembele, Adebayor, which could be rattled into action.

 

[billyiddo]

Hate to be disagreeing with you again P55 but for all Lamelas faults i don't think desire/heart can be seen as one if them.

I think that we've had a huge turnover of players the last few seasons resulting in a lack of identity at the club - no real continuity or core group of players who have been here a while who the new signings can look to as 'Spurs men' makes it to easy for players to shirk responsibilty

 

[chicken_badge]

Just watching MOTD and I think its such a shame things didn't work out better for Sandro. THE Beast. Excellent footballer, positioned in the heart of the action, bites like a rabid dog, huge personality. Again, it was right to let him go... injuries always prevented any momentum. But if only....

 

[BucurestiSpur]

Its going to be tough to change this. Any team knows they have a chance against Spurs because we can be "soft" in a one off match and that we are bottlers over a season.

Just recently Roy Keane related a team talk of SAF that was basically just "ok lads its Tottenham", there was no need to say anything else, 3pts in the bag. It made me rage but its (kind of) true.

What i would give for a Steve Perryman or Graham Roberts in the team now, very hard but fair men who simply wouldn't stand for rolling over from team mates.

I really thought over the 3 games against Arsenal/Chelsea and finally Man C in our CL qualifying season we had started to shake this (what a run of results that was) and again on that lengthy run of results with Harry pre-post Christmas when we left Arsenal 10points behind, we just kept grinding out results.

Like i say its going to be hard. Its tough going straight after coming out of nick, its harder if everyone knows you just came out, and seemingly every man and his dog "knows" about Tottenham.

Its going to take actual pride in the shirt not just personal pride, and outside of (hopefully) any promoted youth/academy guys, who in this squad has it?

 

[chicken_badge]

I honestly believe part of the "it's Tottenham" thing comes from the fans, especially when we are at home. Every club has their own fickle element but I think we have a particularly unhelpful combination: stadium unable to meet demand, high percentage of season ticket holders, busy location making it hard for people getting away.

Liverpool 0-3
West Brom 0-1
Saudi Sportswashing Machine 0-1

That's where it's been a disaster this year.

 

[Pirate55]

Hate to be disagreeing with you again P55 but for all Lamelas faults i don't think desire/heart can be seen as one if them.

I think that we've had a huge turnover of players the last few seasons resulting in a lack of identity at the club - no real continuity or core group of players who have been here a while who the new signings can look to as 'Spurs men' makes it to easy for players to shirk responsibilty

Maybe it's a bit too early to judge him, but would you really want him in the trenches with you when our backs are to the wall? He is a luxury player and while we may be able to carry one or two in a team, we certainly need more people who will run through brick walls. Do we actually have any now that Sandro and Dawson have gone?

 

[billyiddo]

Maybe it's a bit too early to judge him, but would you really want him in the trenches with you when our backs are to the wall? He is a luxury player and while we may be able to carry one or two in a team, we certainly need more people who will run through brick walls. Do we actually have any now that Sandro and Dawson have gone?

I wouldn't describe him as a luxury player either :lol: - think we're destined to see things as opposites you and i...

He seems to try and make things happen and i have seen him doing that in games where his team mates have seemingly given up. Obviously what he's trying isn't always coming off atm and he's yet to put in a consistent run of form but i have nothing negative to say about his work rate and effort.

 

[Hashegotthesackyet?]

Agree with all the names mentioned there.
Lamela imo slightly different.
His attitude and work rate is good.
I think he's had so much pressure/injuries to deal with, that when things go wrong, he struggles to pull himself up, but I think that mental toughness will come, because I think he will work on that side of things.

Sadly, the others won't, imo of course.

 

[diego_maradona]

I'd argue to have even made it to this level (the premier league) you have to have had a lot of desire and mental strength.

I don't necessarily think it's a desire from the individuals that is lacking. I think we as a club attract players of a similar status or who share a similar desire as us. We have finished 4/5/6 for the past 5 years or so.

I think success in a club breeds a change in mentality. Man utd under Ferguson. Average players were made into championship winning players. It's part of what their ethos demanded.

Its been acceptable for as long as I can remember for Spurs to simply entertain and not win at all costs. You need to look at ambitions of clubs to realise the level of desire that club is at. We aim for top four. Chelsea fail when they don't win the league.

Occasionally there is an anomoly. A players whose ambitions and desires outweigh that of the club. Bale. modric. Talent sure but also a burning desire to be champions. At spurs they knew it was ok to be second best.

For me there has been two ways to achieve that mindset of champions. A huge injection of money into the club which heightens expectations, or years or organic growth with a consistent philosophy. With today's modern attitude of I want results straight away or sack the lot of them, it's difficult to see it changing.

Don't blame the players. The club has it's own mentality that we need to improve to be the very best. It certainly isn't a quick solution.

 

[supie]

Just to buck the trend a bit here..; however IMHO suggesting we are underperforming because of a lack of desire seems a bit simplistic. Not enough quality compounded by instability, be that coaches coming and going and our best players being sold on, seems a more tangible and rationale series of reasons for our poor form. I think we are also missing a proven 'winner' in a pivotal position and think a champions league level centre back and/or holding midfielder who is maybe on the wain career wise, would be a sensible series of buys in January and able to develop our younger players for 6-12 months. Also, we must let Poch mould the team and as he seems keen to do, allow the younger players to develop. Perhaps; Rose or Mason or Kane can be that Perryman or Roberts figure that people crave; having said that football has moved on, and I think it's the uber professional dedicated athlete, as opposed to the Knarly dyed in the wool clubman, who are the leaders of the top teams today - Lamella or Chadli to become a CR7 type anyone..?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[Baleforce]

I think it all stems from our overall policy, we sign players who know they are not coming here to win anything, from day 1 they have it in their heads that second best is acceptable and the best they can get out of it is a chance to impress a bigger club.

We need a new attitude off the pitch before we get one on it.

 

[Joesh]

I think it all stems from our overall policy, we sign players who know they are not coming here to win anything, from day 1 they have it in their heads that second best is acceptable and the best they can get out of it is a chance to impress a bigger club.

We need a new attitude off the pitch before we get one on it.

Thats a bit unfair, we can't afford the top stars so we have to go for the next best thing. And the reason they are the next best thing is that either they are young with lots of potential who will be inconsistant or top players with that lack of mentality to really make it.

As others have mentioned the fact we have a really young squad will make us inconsistant anyway. Perhaps we need a Naybet who has been there and done it to add character to our team. Of course young players will have desire but also will more easily be discouraged when things go wrong.

 

[Baleforce]

Its not who we buy that's the problem, it's the expectation we put on them based on the boards opinion of success.

Mostly, people will only ever give you "good enough". As a very wise man once wrote, "we only get what we will settle for".

 

[Armchair Expert]

This season i think the fact we have largely mediocre players has been a contributing factor to our mediocre season.

 

[Joesh]

The board have to project that we are trying to compete otherwise we'd want them out or they couldn't charge top 3 ticket prices if below top 4 was completely acceptable. They also couldn't sell our "project" to players not quite good enough. If you set such a high target of course expectations are high too, deluded or not given the strong competition for those places.

 

[superfaisty]

Supie to your point about it being a bit simplistic - if it were that simple I would have thought Poch would've been able to get his system that worked so well with players arguably of lesser standard at Southampton across much quicker. Someone said it they seem to be showing desire in training but not in matches. If that is true it is a mental block thing as well.

 

[LCLC]

For me the issues are quite clear.

1. We have signed too many players, who when bought, viewed us as a stepping stone to the elite ...... chiriches, vertonghen, dembele, paulinho, lamela, eriksen, maybe even chadli spring to mind. Therefore their attitude towards us and losing is probably going to be more fickle than others.

2. Ripping the heart of the English core to our team. We got rid of some long term players for more fanciable names and a 'continental approach.' the worst thing is that can you honesty say fazio is any better than Dawson (both have a chronic lack of pace), chriches better than caulker, paulinho better than jake, capoue better than hudd? The answer is a probable no to each, which is scandalous when it was said we were upgrading. It is also natural that the guys who left had more heart and care for the club. Whilst none were world beaters, they are all decent players who put in 100%

3. Point 3 would continue on this when it should be noted that our transfer dealings have lacked strategy or intelligence. Yes we have signed some complete duds but it's shocking how we keep signing players without pace, strength and sadly..... Good technique. Heart will take you so far but we have a very average squad that ranges from 5/10 to 7/10 for the most part - combine this with a lack of care and you can see why we are getting beaten up like a league 1 side when we play a good team.

The immediate answer would be to form a squad around dier, walker, rose, mason, bentelab, Carroll, Pritchard and a couple of new ones coming through. All of these have experience and could be good back-up or starters for us next season. Expectations are so low that poch would be given good time if he was seen to be building something along these lines. I would look to really promote the next batch as well and bring a togetherness to te squad.

In doing so, bomb these flops out and replace them with either proven quality (ambitious signings) or players with prem experience (the likes of Reid, Barry, Lescott, Milner etc)have been linked and would have been able to lead the younger players and offer genuine quality.

Then add to the squad with players who see this as a step up and an opportunity as this sort of attitude will rub off on others. I was going to put Stromboli in the lacking quality list but we haven't seen enough and his attitude looks first class so he can stay!

Sorry for long winded essay but there are a mixture of problems that stems from attitude and quality/suitability and it will take us a while to solve it - if poch plays his cards right e has an opportunity to really change this club and be afforded time to do so.

 

[markysimmo]

No leadership on the pitch, no character, no heart in the main, too many players the same also

I like Pochettino a lot and am looking forward to watching HIS team play from next season onwards