Crosses

[Bedfordspurs]

I meant all our matches except the ones against the other big 6 team. Maybe teams aren't retreating against us as much as the Poch era yet, because we are still a bit crap. But any decent team needs primarily lock pickers to breach the defences it faces, not Allardyce balls to an Andy Carroll.

There really aren’t many teams that play that way in this division any more

 

[Sandman]

from a non stat based point of view I feel that Reggie and Emerson both have a good cross on them. But when we played teams deplying a deep block their emphasis seems to retain possession or check back in as they dont see the space in front of them. This then means that the inside attacker has the better angle to get a cross in. Often this is the two Center backs that are advanced in our system. So basically its falling a bit more to Davies and Sanchez. Davies has got a cross on him but he does seem to hit the first man a lot. Sanchez. Well he never attempts them at all, just works the passes back inside or back out to the already covered wing back.

I am not sure how dangerous we would be from cross when teams have a deep block. We are not the tallest and with Kane and Moura we have two good players in the air, but that is it. Skipp, Winks, Peh even Son are not going to rise like the preverbal salmon.

Most teams dont sit back on us. BUT they will have seen that it frustrated us in two of our games. So I expect the lower half of the league to start doing against us more often now. We hardly looked potent in those two games although we did still have chances and could and should have won both.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

from a non stat based point of view I feel that Reggie and Emerson both have a good cross on them. But when we played teams deplying a deep block their emphasis seems to retain possession or check back in as they dont see the space in front of them. This then means that the inside attacker has the better angle to get a cross in. Often this is the two Center backs that are advanced in our system. So basically its falling a bit more to Davies and Sanchez. Davies has got a cross on him but he does seem to hit the first man a lot. Sanchez. Well he never attempts them at all, just works the passes back inside or back out to the already covered wing back.

I am not sure how dangerous we would be from cross when teams have a deep block. We are not the tallest and with Kane and Moura we have two good players in the air, but that is it. Skipp, Winks, Peh even Son are not going to rise like the preverbal salmon.

Most teams dont sit back on us. BUT they will have seen that it frustrated us in two of our games. So I expect the lower half of the league to start doing against us more often now. We hardly looked potent in those two games although we did still have chances and could and should have won both.

It’s why having an extra striker option to work their CBs is key
You don’t start son, you start new guy with Kane (assuming the new guy is a real 9) and those two occupy the CBS more
Bring son in later when there may be Kroeber space as we’re already leading

 

[Bishop]

It’s why having an extra striker option to work their CBs is key
You don’t start son, you start new guy with Kane (assuming the new guy is a real 9) and those two occupy the CBS more
Bring son in later when there may be Kroeber space as we’re already leading

If we demonstrate more ability to play through the lines of teams they will adjust and leave more space in the wider areas allowing a better quality of cross to come in. If they adjust for the cross we then have the space to pay through balls. A varied attack is what is needed, not just throwing a another 9 on and hoping that making our attacking plan even more obvious doesn't also make it easier to plan for and defend against.

The best teams have quality out wide AND through the middle.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

If we demonstrate more ability to play through the lines of teams they will adjust and leave more space in the wider areas allowing a better quality of cross to come in. If they adjust for the cross we then have the space to pay through balls. A varied attack is what is needed, not just throwing a another 9 on and hoping that making our attacking plan even more obvious doesn't also make it easier to plan for and defend against.

The best teams have quality out wide AND through the middle.

Pool won the league with nothing through the middle
So did Leicester
City’s game is all about it backs and balls in from behind (fed from the centre though I’d agree)
Conte has won several league titles without a creative CM
The best teams have a way of winning. That’s what is key

 

[Bishop]

Pool won the league with nothing through the middle
So did Leicester
City’s game is all about it backs and balls in from behind (fed from the centre though I’d agree)
Conte has won several league titles without a creative CM
The best teams have a way of winning. That’s what is key

I disagree that Liverpool won with nothing coming through the middle. Henderson and Fabinho are perfectly capable of playing possession football and did so. Henderson in particular is very adept at spreading the ball from the centre. Leicester had Drinkwater passing balls into space from the centre for Maharez and Vardy to run onto. City vary their attack with centre play as well as keeping the width. These are all varied ways of playing. Chelsea under Conte the year they won the league played centrally and with width. I'm not saying he must play with a creative midfielder just a player in the middle good at picking out passes. All the teams you mentioned had players capable of doing this, we lack it. Doubling down on just crossing the ball to 2 strikers isn't going to win Conte a title here.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I disagree that Liverpool won with nothing coming through the middle. Henderson and Fabinho are perfectly capable of playing possession football and did so. Henderson in particular is very adept at spreading the ball from the centre. Leicester had Drinkwater passing balls into space from the centre for Maharez and Vardy to run onto. City vary their attack with centre play as well as keeping the width. These are all varied ways of playing. Chelsea under Conte the year they won the league played centrally and with width. I'm not saying he must play with a creative midfielder just a player in the middle good at picking out passes. All the teams you mentioned had players capable of doing this, we lack it. Doubling down on just crossing the ball to 2 strikers isn't going to win Conte a title here.

Hojbjergs stats are on par with Henderson’s since he has been at spurs. He does like to spray a long ball forward but most of his passes are to the creative wingbacks

I do agree that drink waters long balls for Leicester to chase were effective.. but it’s not how we play. If we played like that our fans would have kittens

cit always go wide and then back in or their preferred route was a certain ginger man staying wide ride hitting crazily good passes on a diagonal over the top for someone to bury. That’s a cross just from deeper

Chelsea won the league with kante and matic playing CM. They did in some games play fabregas (second half of the season) but they relied on exactly the same system we play

a big difference was you knew you were in a game with Costa who jumped off every cross. We don’t. We let teams defend the crosses way way too easily

contes teams have never been set up with a playmaker. It’s probably why they don’t last

 

[Bishop]

Hojbjergs stats are on par with Henderson’s since he has been at spurs. He does like to spray a long ball forward but most of his passes are to the creative wingbacks

I do agree that drink waters long balls for Leicester to chase were effective.. but it’s not how we play. If we played like that our fans would have kittens

cit always go wide and then back in or their preferred route was a certain ginger man staying wide ride hitting crazily good passes on a diagonal over the top for someone to bury. That’s a cross just from deeper

Chelsea won the league with kante and matic playing CM. They did in some games play fabregas (second half of the season) but they relied on exactly the same system we play

a big difference was you knew you were in a game with Costa who jumped off every cross. We don’t. We let teams defend the crosses way way too easily

contes teams have never been set up with a playmaker. It’s probably why they don’t last

You're forgetting Hazard who would cut on from the left and played and wide but also centrally. You're also forget the impact of Luiz's passing from the centre when he stepped up. Cesc played an important part of their title win, without him they probably drop more points giving us the opportunity to catch them. Chelsea favoured the wider areas but they did not neglect the middle, they didn't play 2 strikers and just cross to them all day.

I'm not sure if you're serious in comparing Henderson and Hojberg's passing? [emoji1787] I'm not even particularly a fan of Henderson's but here's a world of difference between their long passing abilities.

DeBruyne plays in the centre. He has a fantastic cross (we have no player of this quality) but he also plays through balls through the middle as well. And that's my point, it's variety, not one single tactic which I don't even think Conte would agree with you. He has used variety in the past, and I'm sure he will institute some variety at spurs because that is what has worked for him in the past.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

You're forgetting Hazard who would cut on from the left and played and wide but also centrally. You're also forget the impact of Luiz's passing from the centre when he stepped up. Cesc played an important part of their title win, without him they probably drop more points giving us the opportunity to catch them. Chelsea favoured the wider areas but they did not neglect the middle, they didn't play 2 strikers and just cross to them all day.

I'm not sure if you're serious in comparing Henderson and Hojberg's passing? [emoji1787] I'm not even particularly a fan of Henderson's but here's a world of difference between their long passing abilities.

DeBruyne plays in the centre. He has a fantastic cross (we have no player of this quality) but he also plays through balls through the middle as well. And that's my point, it's variety, not one single tactic which I don't even think Conte would agree with you. He has used variety in the past, and I'm sure he will institute some variety at spurs because that is what has worked for him in the past.

He will adapt and change the team over time
Of that I agree 100%
He will do that with new players IMO
But his core ethos is create using width and a fundamental of that is crossing. But crossing to one striker who isn’t even fighting for a ball is pointless
When he brought fabregas in it was mainly instead of Pedro or William
He kept his “stiff” midfield. He did play more for them when they played 4-2-3-1 to start with IIRC

 

[braineclipse]

Hojbjergs stats are on par with Henderson’s since he has been at spurs. He does like to spray a long ball forward but most of his passes are to the creative wingbacks

I do agree that drink waters long balls for Leicester to chase were effective.. but it’s not how we play. If we played like that our fans would have kittens

cit always go wide and then back in or their preferred route was a certain ginger man staying wide ride hitting crazily good passes on a diagonal over the top for someone to bury. That’s a cross just from deeper

Chelsea won the league with kante and matic playing CM. They did in some games play fabregas (second half of the season) but they relied on exactly the same system we play

a big difference was you knew you were in a game with Costa who jumped off every cross. We don’t. We let teams defend the crosses way way too easily

contes teams have never been set up with a playmaker. It’s probably why they don’t last

Not entirely sure what you mean by "through the middle". Liverpool have and have had great threat through the middle, a lot of that comes from the front three of course. But they usually play a midfield three filled with at the very least tidy and effective passers capable of moving the ball effectively.

Matic was a very effective short range passer imo and Kante remains underrated on the ball. But yes, Conte seems very capable of playing without a dedicated "creative" midfielder. What the front three and wing backs offer then obviously matters even more.

It's hard to break down parked buses consistently. It will take time and probably a signing or two to really get it right. Doesn't have to be a top class creative midfielder though. I agree on that.

 

[Pirate55]

It’s why having an extra striker option to work their CBs is key
You don’t start son, you start new guy with Kane (assuming the new guy is a real 9) and those two occupy the CBS more
Bring son in later when there may be Kroeber space as we’re already leading

This is exactly what I have been advocating against the so called "lesser teams" who will sit back against us. Son is not effective with his back to goal and his touch and hold up play is particularly poor at the moment. We do need a traditional centre forward though to implement this tactic

 

[braineclipse]

This is exactly what I have been advocating against the so called "lesser teams" who will sit back against us. Son is not effective with his back to goal and his touch and hold up play is particularly poor at the moment. We do need a traditional centre forward though to implement this tactic

Part of the problem imo is the several different ways our squad is lacking balance. Several of those ends up with us being not great at breaking down parked buses, something that is difficult enough at the best of times.

-Centre backs that aren't great on the ball.
-Central midfielders where there's a choice between good enough on the ball and good enough defensively, no real functional pair that brings enough of both.
-Wing backs that are better in full back areas than the final third.
-Forwards that aren't great in tight areas, that need space to exploit (Kane not included, he's great at everything).

A traditional centre forward to play target average crosses at (because that's mainly what we are able to produce) helps. But it's imo not a fix, teams that have gotten really good at this have to be good at attacking in other ways too.

Is there a traditional centre forward, capable of just beating a PL centre back in the air to score from an average cross? Surely, yes. But that only gets us so far imo. I can't think of a team relying mainly on average crosses to a target man getting good enough, consistently enough to break down parked buses.

Can we find a player that can also do that and help us in the other ways to break down teams that sit back? Not so sure. Because we also need him to be a good finisher, work hard, right attitude etc.

The alternative solution is to find players that help us more with the other ways of breaking teams down.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Part of the problem imo is the several different ways our squad is lacking balance. Several of those ends up with us being not great at breaking down parked buses, something that is difficult enough at the best of times.

-Centre backs that aren't great on the ball.
-Central midfielders where there's a choice between good enough on the ball and good enough defensively, no real functional pair that brings enough of both.
-Wing backs that are better in full back areas than the final third.
-Forwards that aren't great in tight areas, that need space to exploit (Kane not included, he's great at everything).

A traditional centre forward to play target average crosses at (because that's mainly what we are able to produce) helps. But it's imo not a fix, teams that have gotten really good at this have to be good at attacking in other ways too.

Is there a traditional centre forward, capable of just beating a PL centre back in the air to score from an average cross? Surely, yes. But that only gets us so far imo. I can't think of a team relying mainly on average crosses to a target man getting good enough, consistently enough to break down parked buses.

Can we find a player that can also do that and help us in the other ways to break down teams that sit back? Not so sure. Because we also need him to be a good finisher, work hard, right attitude etc.

The alternative solution is to find players that help us more with the other ways of breaking teams down.

All teams struggle to break downs. Team playing 6-3-1 like wtaford
Our issue was and is we have very few goal threats. Mark kane and son and who else do we have ?
That’s why we need another striker, another threat.
People seem to forget we only have Kane as a genuine 9
You play 2 9s hurting the defensive wall it’s much easier than having 9 men behind the ball trying to attack

 

[Pirate55]

Part of the problem imo is the several different ways our squad is lacking balance. Several of those ends up with us being not great at breaking down parked buses, something that is difficult enough at the best of times.

-Centre backs that aren't great on the ball.
-Central midfielders where there's a choice between good enough on the ball and good enough defensively, no real functional pair that brings enough of both.
-Wing backs that are better in full back areas than the final third.
-Forwards that aren't great in tight areas, that need space to exploit (Kane not included, he's great at everything).

A traditional centre forward to play target average crosses at (because that's mainly what we are able to produce) helps. But it's imo not a fix, teams that have gotten really good at this have to be good at attacking in other ways too.

Is there a traditional centre forward, capable of just beating a PL centre back in the air to score from an average cross? Surely, yes. But that only gets us so far imo. I can't think of a team relying mainly on average crosses to a target man getting good enough, consistently enough to break down parked buses.

Can we find a player that can also do that and help us in the other ways to break down teams that sit back? Not so sure. Because we also need him to be a good finisher, work hard, right attitude etc.

The alternative solution is to find players that help us more with the other ways of breaking teams down.

I know we have had this discussion elsewhere. However, what you appear to be advocating is just more of the same (only with better players) whereas I am advocating for a type of player who brings a different dimension and gives us additional options.

 

[Bishop]

I know we have had this discussion elsewhere. However, what you appear to be advocating is just more of the same (only with better players) whereas I am advocating for a type of player who brings a different dimension and gives us additional options.

Variety is indeed the route we should be going down. Cross by all means but that shouldn't be the only means. It's never previously been Conte sole route if attack so I can't see it being the case now.

 

[Pirate55]

Variety is indeed the route we should be going down. Cross by all means but that shouldn't be the only means. It's never previously been Conte sole route if attack so I can't see it being the case now.

Who said "sole route"? With wingbacks crosses are only a natural part of an attacking repertoire.

 

[braineclipse]

All teams struggle to break downs. Team playing 6-3-1 like wtaford
Our issue was and is we have very few goal threats. Mark kane and son and who else do we have ?
That’s why we need another striker, another threat.
People seem to forget we only have Kane as a genuine 9
You play 2 9s hurting the defensive wall it’s much easier than having 9 men behind the ball trying to attack

Not saying we don't need another striker. Do we need a striker who has winning crosses as one of his main strengths?

I know we have had this discussion elsewhere. However, what you appear to be advocating is just more of the same (only with better players) whereas I am advocating for a type of player who brings a different dimension and gives us additional options.

Funny how differently we can see things. Here I was think you were advocating for more of the same, but with a/another target man to aim those crosses at.

We need more dimensions that aren't crossing too, even if we sign a target man striker imo. Relying on crossing to break down teams that sit deep isn't a good enough solution. Having that option would help, but only to a point.

Last big teams to try something like that as far as I can remember was when Liverpool signed Carroll. For me it's fallen out of fashion for good reasons.

Again, just to be clear, not saying it wouldn't be a useful option to have. If we can find a striker with a wide range of qualities including being a good target for crosses I'm not against it. We need more dimensions than that though.

 

[Bishop]

Who said "sole route"? With wingbacks crosses are only a natural part of an attacking repertoire.

Bedford seems to want to double down on just crossing. It's the debate we've been having today.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Bedford seems to want to double down on just crossing. It's the debate we've been having today.

No I don’t
It’s just that people don’t seem to realise this is Contes MO
This so how his teams operate successfully
Fans may not like it, like the same ones who complain when we pass backwards but it’s how he wants them to play
What he will also want though are forwards making it harder for defenders. We haven’t done that since Lorente left and he couldn’t even jump.
in fact Moura is the guy who makes defenders work hardest on crosses
And crosses are massively viable as an attacking route. West Ham got into Europe with wet plays which are crosses. Pool are a team that thrive on crosses even though their a small side in attack
But both those sides are much more active when the ball is played… we’re currently passive