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OMT - Tottenham Hotspur - Woolwich tossers

parklane1 said:
It did, the midfield has been our biggest weak spot over the last couple of seasons.
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It’s because we have been shoe horning players in to fit and dabbling with systems
I did a quick check in tanguys positions last year as @braineclipse raised it in the best XI thread
Just in the December and January we okayed 3 different formations
It’s bonkers
 
Mosquito_Coasting said:
Missed this fortunately. How were Sanchez and Dier?
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Not too bad really in a defensive sense considering what they were having to deal with. They were constantly left with a chasm of space in front of them due to us having no holding player or the whoever was supposed to be the holding player going AWOL. Arsenal had a number of attacks where they had even attacking numbers to our defence or even numerical overloads in Arsenal's favour as a result of this.

In an attacking sense they were as bad as they always are. Neither of them can pass the ball as we already know, so typically our possession would involve our defence playing a few simple passes between them and then either Dier or Sanchez hitting it long (usually straight to an Arsenal player but occasionally somewhere in the vicinity of Kane, who would lose the header to Ben White).

If Romero is half decent on the ball then I think he needs to come into the team for one of our two CBs (doesn't really matter which one) so that we can actually pass it out from the back, though lets not be fooled into thinking that changing our centre backs would've actually made a difference to the result yesterday. We lost that game in midfield with absolutely ridiculous shape and tactics implemented by the man the hierarchy at our club picked as our 8th choice, cheap, available manager.
 
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Bedfordspurs said:
Depends what system
For me Dier and Romero last week vs Chelsea we’re great
They did everything they could
But if we go 3 at the back we need a different blend
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They looked better as they actually had some protection in front of them (Hojbjerg was staying deep to cover the runs of Mount and Haivertz and even Dele and Ndombele were deeper trying to cut the passing lanes out from Kovacic and Jorginho).

The more I think about Sunday the more I think that our players were playing to the manager's instructions which is incredibly damning on Nuno.
 
Finney Is Back said:
They looked better as they actually had some protection in front of them (Hojbjerg was staying deep to cover the runs of Mount and Haivertz and even Dele and Ndombele were deeper trying to cut the passing lanes out from Kovacic and Jorginho).

The more I think about Sunday the more I think that our players were playing to the manager's instructions which is incredibly damning on Nuno.
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I agree
Although they also seemed to compliment each other
 
Finney Is Back said:
Answer.... No he doesn't.

He needs to play as a disciplined holder for us, especially if we're going with a back 4. With Dele and Ndombele being asked to get our wide it is even more essential that Hojbjerg has to hold the midfield. Our tactics are completely baffling to me.
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The midfield on Sunday in that first 45 was as bizarre as it could possibly have been. No-one doing what they were there to do AND being bypassed to boot. PEH was mental! That press for their second…WTF?!
 
billyiddo said:
We've been on a prolonged downward trajectory since leaving WHL and it's hard to avoid pointing fingers at the clubs heirachy.
Not finding a way to back Poch during the stadium build, letting him go and then appointing Mourinho were all badly thought out decisions from the man at the top and now we're in for another big key decision (or two) of his to set us back further - you can forgive a set back or two if we learn from them and address the problems but this is not a good look at present and even his most staunch defenders will struggle to support him much longer.
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This ‘winning mentality’ has to have a very fundamental root; the top. If the top operates solely like a business, then it simply is not a priority to anyone else. Again, I feel sorry for Nuno and applaud his dignity.
 
Finney Is Back said:
Not true. Dele was up high trying to get up near to Kane so that he could get on the flick on (I think part of our poor long ball tactics). Ndombele was wide left. As soon as Hojbjerg got easily beaten Arsenal had a 4 on 4. This was all happening directly in front of Hojbjerg who could see the 4 on 4, yet instead of sprinting back to try to even up the numbers, he just casually jogged back. As he got beaten he was actually ahead of their goal scorer, Smith-Rowe. Just an ounce of effort and we could've had the centre of the box shored up so that we couldn't conceded to a simple ball towards the penalty spot.

At some point Dele realises that Hojbjerg can't be bothered to do anything about Arsenal's attack and sees (I think it is) Odegaard free in the box so makes a sprint to try to ensure Arsenal do not have a free player in the box. Even Ndombele got himself further back than Hojbjerg did for that goal. Make no mistake it was disgraceful, lazy play from the player who is supposed to be our deepest midfielder. Hojbjerg is either injured or wants Nuno to be sacked IMO.

Second goal. Hojbjerg up higher on the pitch than both Dele and Ndombele? Why?!?.... It makes no sense at all. It then creates a ridiculous chasm of space in the middle of the pitch in front of our centre backs. All Arsenal then have to do if they win the ball is play a simple ball into feet to their centre forward and we're in big trouble. A ball that just wouldn't be on if we had a player covering that position.

Third goal. Kane falls over on the ball and Arsenal break. As Odegaard looks to take the ball back towards his own goal Hojbjerg has to then drop off to ensure Arsenal don't have an overload on us. Instead of that he steps up with him leaving an absolute chasm of space in front of our two centre backs. He actually pretty much crashes into Ndombele as he follows the ball. Arsenal end up easily working a 3 on 2 against our 2 central defenders who have no real chance.

Unfortunately the player who is supposed to be the most defensive of our midfield 3 and who should be ensuring that teams cannot get through the centre against us is phoning it in at the moment. This is making it impossible for our centre backs who are getting outnumbered and left with a player running at them centrally.
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Indeed. The only mitigation for PEH is he has been wildly over-played and has spent most of the season on the right of a three, with this switch back to ‘holding role’ obviously confusing the brick out of him for some bizarre reason. I cannot understand what he was (or wasn’t) doing. It makes no sense whatsoever.
 
thfcsteff said:
This ‘winning mentality’ has to have a very fundamental root; the top. If the top operates solely like a business, then it simply is not a priority to anyone else. Again, I feel sorry for Nuno and applaud his dignity.
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This is true, but it's also true that a winning mentality starts at the bottom and all the way through the hierarchy.

Whatever the decision making process was behind the plan for that first half against Arsenal it was the opposite of a winning mentality. I can't set that what Levy did years ago stopped Nuno from making a better decision.
 
thfcsteff said:
The midfield on Sunday in that first 45 was as bizarre as it could possibly have been. No-one doing what they were there to do AND being bypassed to boot. PEH was mental! That press for their second…WTF?!
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Do you believe it’s the coach?
I mean it was so bizarre
I just can’t believe any coach would ask his players to play that way considering the original set up mirrored the first 3 games this season
 
thfcsteff said:
Indeed. The only mitigation for PEH is he has been wildly over-played and has spent most of the season on the right of a three, with this switch back to ‘holding role’ obviously confusing the brick out of him for some bizarre reason. I cannot understand what he was (or wasn’t) doing. It makes no sense whatsoever.
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Sorry but I can't see how a professional footballer can be confused by having to play the holding role. It is perhaps the very easiest positional role to play on the whole pitch. Hojbjerg was either doing exactly what he wanted to do as he doesn't like or trust the manager so isn't listening to him and carrying out his instructions, or doing exactly what the manager wanted and the manager hasn't got a clue how to shape a team.
 
Finney Is Back said:
Sorry but I can't see how a professional footballer can be confused by having to play the holding role. It is perhaps the very easiest positional role to play on the whole pitch. Hojbjerg was either doing exactly what he wanted to do as he doesn't like or trust the manager so isn't listening to him and carrying out his instructions, or doing exactly what the manager wanted and the manager hasn't got a clue how to shape a team.
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So hold that thought
Has anyone ever seen a midfield do what we did before?
I mean literally split and go wide or long and leave about a third of the pitch behind them
I’ve never ever seen that and I watch way too much football
What I have seen is players not playing the way they have apparently been asked and players doing stupid things for no obvious reason
That’s no to say it wasn’t Nunos tactics but I just can’t see it from a “safety first”manager
 
Bedfordspurs said:
So hold that thought
Has anyone ever seen a midfield do what we did before?
I mean literally split and go wide or long and leave about a third of the pitch behind them
I’ve never ever seen that and I watch way too much football
What I have seen is players not playing the way they have apparently been asked and players doing stupid things for no obvious reason
That’s no to say it wasn’t Nunos tactics but I just can’t see it from a “safety first”manager
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I have never seen a team set up like that.
What i find odd though is that for the first three games, parts of the Palace game and half of the Chelsea game we played almost the exact opposite. We flooded the middle and forced teams down the flanks.
Didn't we, or am i not remembering right?
Now we had a fair amount of success with that. Before the sending off at Palace it was a fairly even game, something dramatically changed second half against Chelsea but there were encouraging signs in those five games.
The first three games in particular we looked solid, compact and playing for each other. The last bit isn't something i've seen for two years.
Whats changed, why has it changed and how long before it is sorted?
Its one of three things for me,
Nuno
Ndombele
Or
Kane.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
So hold that thought
Has anyone ever seen a midfield do what we did before?
I mean literally split and go wide or long and leave about a third of the pitch behind them
I’ve never ever seen that and I watch way too much football
What I have seen is players not playing the way they have apparently been asked and players doing stupid things for no obvious reason
That’s no to say it wasn’t Nunos tactics but I just can’t see it from a “safety first”manager
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Can't remember examples, no. A donut shape in attacking buildup play.... If Alli and Ndombele were moving that far forward/wide without instructions to do so I'd expect a reaction from the bench. Maybe there was one, I don't know.

We played it long when under pressure at the back, but also without real pressure on our defenders. With a lot of players far forward, central midfield more or less abandoned.

Really wouldn't expect both of those to happen unless that was the plan. Would have expected a reaction not only from the bench, but also from our defenders. "Where is the passing option in midfield?" kind of gestures and reactions. Can't remember seeing that.

Can guess at the intention, but it went horribly wrong and we didn't adjust when we could.
 
braineclipse said:
Can't remember examples, no. A donut shape in attacking buildup play.... If Alli and Ndombele were moving that far forward/wide without instructions to do so I'd expect a reaction from the bench. Maybe there was one, I don't know.

We played it long when under pressure at the back, but also without real pressure on our defenders. With a lot of players far forward, central midfield more or less abandoned.

Really wouldn't expect both of those to happen unless that was the plan. Would have expected a reaction not only from the bench, but also from our defenders. "Where is the passing option in midfield?" kind of gestures and reactions. Can't remember seeing that.

Can guess at the intention, but it went horribly wrong and we didn't adjust when we could.
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It was just odd
Almost unheard of
Actually it was unheard of for a team to play with no CM
Very strange set up
And something that needs fix
 
Bedfordspurs said:
It was just odd
Almost unheard of
Actually it was unheard of for a team to play with no CM
Very strange set up
And something that needs fix
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Nuno so far has struggled to adapt during play. Somewhat during half time, but when we start struggling in the first half it's pretty much lasted at least until half time. Perhaps the limited time he's had with the players has made it difficult to also work on a backup plan? Perhaps he's trusting the players to change things by improving how they implement the style he wants them to play?

He has been quite good at not making the same mistake twice in terms of the plan from the start.

He hasn't been able to improve on our fundamental issues much at all apart from the first games where we at least looked solid defensively.

Leads me to think that the particular problems from the Arsenal game won't happen again. But a plan to improve on our fundamental issues when in possession is going to take time (if it happens).

Unless this was a breaking point. Real changes in the lineup and approach style breaking point. (Not necessarily formation).
 
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