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Thomas Frank - Head Coach

harr1984 said:
Football isn't some simple maths equation where more time = better performances and results. People keep rolling out the Arteta example as if that's the way it will go for every manager if given a load of time (not to mention a ridiculous amount of money that our manager won't be getting).

I remember after Conte's first season where he did well to get us top 4, and a load on here were then predicting top 3 and maybe even a title push all because he had been here for a while now and the only way was up. Well no, as we all know it wasn't. By this theory I guess Forest should have kept onto Ange, who unlike Frank didn't even get a pre season because after time it gets better right? No of course not, it just wasn't going to work and he was gone.

Frank had a whole pre season after which the football was turgid, but at least the defence was looking solid. Fast forward 20 games and now the defence is rubbish, the attacking play is as bad as it’s been for quite some time. So can mention time as much as you want, our play is regressing and he needs to sort it out pretty quickly if he wants to be here any longer than this season.....
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For me the patience bit is more around culture. Creating a culture of not bombing people out at the first sign of trouble. Not demanding perfection when those making the decisions have been anything but (Levy would have fired himself years ago).

There’s no guarantee of success with that single person, but I believe that stability — and importantly the understanding of who you are — will ideally lead to it.
 
Finney Is Back said:
I think it comes from the coach. It has been evident in many games this season that teams go man for man against our attacking players to create an extra attacker for themselves when they have the ball. We, on the other hand, keep an extra (spare) man back and therefore have fewer players to attack with when we have the ball. Our shape and our lack of forward passes through the middle are both cowardly, ‘low risk, low reward’ ways of playing.
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This is why my current hypothesis is that Frank simply doesn't trust the current squad to play with more risk, because their limitations, and particularly their collective lack of ability to resist a press mean the dice are always going to be loaded against him. He is "big" on bravery, he says ("if you don't take risk, you also take risk," etc.) so why is it so glaringly absent from what we see on the pitch game after game? What I'm currently seeing is someone basically locked in damage-limitation mode, which, if I'm right (you may think that's a big if...), would be a reasonable position to adopt. There's risk, and there's stupid risk. I also suspect that he may be prone to overthinking things, which can often make matters even worse.
 
mudshark said:
This is why my current hypothesis is that Frank simply doesn't trust the current squad to play with more risk, because their limitations, and particularly their collective lack of ability to resist a press mean the dice are always going to be loaded against him. He is "big" on bravery, he says ("if you don't take risk, you also take risk," etc.) so why is it so glaringly absent from what we see on the pitch game after game? What I'm currently seeing is someone basically locked in damage-limitation mode, which, if I'm right (you may think that's a big if...), would be a reasonable position to adopt. There's risk, and there's stupid risk. I also suspect that he may be prone to overthinking things, which can often make matters even worse.
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But there is no risk in any of our passing, it's all safe. We're never going to progress that way. While our midfield isn't world class it's also not that bad that it can't play forward. It's also about getting a system embedded into the team. Even if it's not going to work 100% with the players we have now, at least the whole team won't have to learn a new system when we get the type of midfielder that Frank wants in order to be more brave.
 
harr1984 said:
Football isn't some simple maths equation where more time = better performances and results. People keep rolling out the Arteta example as if that's the way it will go for every manager if given a load of time (not to mention a ridiculous amount of money that our manager won't be getting).

I remember after Conte's first season where he did well to get us top 4, and a load on here were then predicting top 3 and maybe even a title push all because he had been here for a while now and the only way was up. Well no, as we all know it wasn't. By this theory I guess Forest should have kept onto Ange, who unlike Frank didn't even get a pre season because after time it gets better right? No of course not, it just wasn't going to work and he was gone.

Frank had a whole pre season after which the football was turgid, but at least the defence was looking solid. Fast forward 20 games and now the defence is rubbish, the attacking play is as bad as its been for quite some time. So can mention time as much as you want, our play is regressing and he needs to sort it out pretty quickly if he wants to be here any longer than this season.....
Click to expand...
Arteta is a funny example too, as Arsenal would very likely have one a title or two if they'd kept Emery instrad
 
DubSpur said:
But there is no risk in any of our passing, it's all safe. We're never going to progress that way. While our midfield isn't world class it's also not that bad that it can't play forward. It's also about getting a system embedded into the team. Even if it's not going to work 100% with the players we have now, at least the whole team won't have to learn a new system when we get the type of midfielder that Frank wants in order to be more brave.
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I wouldn't say we never play the ball forward, but from what I've been seeing recently, to a first approximation, a forward pass equals a turnover, which is why I think he has tended to be so cautious in his approach. What's a bit worrying is that, if anything, that appears to have got worse as time's gone on, rather than better.
 
mudshark said:
I wouldn't say we never play the ball forward, but from what I've been seeing recently, to a first approximation, a forward pass equals a turnover, which is why I think he has tended to be so cautious in his approach. What's a bit worrying is that, if anything, that appears to have got worse as time's gone on, rather than better.
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If we don't pass forward we're never going to score and it results in the horrible football we've had to endure for most of the season. It also just invites pressure as when we eventually do lose the ball it's nearer to our goal.
 
DubSpur said:
If we don't pass forward we're never going to score and it results in the horrible football we've had to endure for most of the season. It also just invites pressure as when we eventually do lose the ball it's nearer to our goal.
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We do pass forward ...sometimes, it's just that when we do, we're very likely to lose possession, which is why it's understandable if Frank wants to be more cautious about who is committed up the pitch at any given time. Unfortunately, as you say, that doesn't make for the most attractive, free-flowing football.
 
Part of my concern is after over 20 games I’m not sure Frank knows his best 11.

I want it to work but week on week I’m getting less confident that it will
 
mudshark said:
We do pass forward ...sometimes, it's just that when we do, we're very likely to lose possession, which is why it's understandable if Frank wants to be more cautious about who is committed up the pitch at any given time. Unfortunately, as you say, that doesn't make for the most attractive, free-flowing football.
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I'd rather us have a go, than just abandoning practically any attacking intentions. That's just waiting for defeat and giving up on winning games.
 
DubSpur said:
I'd rather us have a go, than just abandoning practically any attacking intentions. That's just waiting for defeat and giving up on winning games.
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I might be cynical but just having go probably going to work. You need to have a go with some quality (something we are lacking).

However its totally fair that you'd prefer seeing us go for and failing rather than trying to control and still failing.

For me either way we fail and I don't want to fail. 😅
 
Bishop said:
I might be cynical but just having go probably going to work. You need to have a go with some quality (something we are lacking).

However its totally fair that you'd prefer seeing us go for and failing rather than trying to control and still failing.

For me either way we fail and I don't want to fail. 😅
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We aren't controlling anything though. I'd rather us put in the foundations for a proper style of football that will benefit us long term, even if it is hit and miss for the moment, rather than the negative crap we are currently seeing. If it continues with the horrible negative football, we all know how toxic it's going to get in the ground. The only way it would be tolerated is if it's winning football, but it's not.

I don't think any of us want to fail ;)
 
DubSpur said:
We aren't controlling anything though. I'd rather us put in the foundations for a proper style of football that will benefit us long term, even if it is hit and miss for the moment, rather than the negative crap we are currently seeing. If it continues with the horrible negative football, we all know how toxic it's going to get in the ground. The only way it would be tolerated is if it's winning football, but it's not.

I don't think any of us want to fail ;)
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Oh don't get me wrong I don't think we are controlling anything, but I do think that's what he's attempting to do (and failing at).

I want a quality CM. If we get that, I'd actually be more critical of our midfield play because at that point my expectations from them will be much higher.
 
tommysvr said:
For me the patience bit is more around culture. Creating a culture of not bombing people out at the first sign of trouble. Not demanding perfection when those making the decisions have been anything but (Levy would have fired himself years ago).

There’s no guarantee of success with that single person, but I believe that stability — and importantly the understanding of who you are — will ideally lead to it.
Click to expand...
The problem we have had since Ange's first 10 games is our acceptance to lose. It's almost as if it's the norm now, and instead of it inspiring our players to do better, it's just another bad day at the office. This type of thing is unacceptable for ambitious clubs, but puts us amongst the the also runs. I still believe we have a top six side, but we have a bottom six side mentality, and our manager's experience is in keeping sides up, not actually winning anything
 
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