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Micky van de Ven

Legohamster said:
He also said Him and Romero had to tell Ange he needed to adjust to win the thing......

Doesn't scream they were all in on him either.


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It's funny I said the players themselves decided to defend deep and there it is quoted from VDV himself. It just makes sense considering that we didn't play the same way in the league at all, which if this was an evolution of his philosophy you would expect to see some element of it tried in league matches but it never was. It was the players themselves deciding that they wanted to win and they felt that was the approach to take to do it.
 
harr1984 said:
I suggest you watch it, he was very complimentary about Ange and his style. Was a good listen, he is our next captain if he fancies staying around....
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I have, they are always going to be complimentary of him, he also said he wasn't a fan of being so open all the time.

Talks of a new contract, hopefully he signs as can see Madrid/Liverpool sniffing around shortly.
 
Legohamster said:
I have, they are always going to be complimentary of him, he also said he wasn't a fan of being so open all the time.

Talks of a new contract, hopefully he signs as can see Madrid/Liverpool sniffing around shortly.
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Plenty of players have criticised a manager after he's left. He literally said more than once that he loved Anges style and 'still believes in his system', but there were times where they needed to be less open which is totally fair....
 
harr1984 said:
Plenty of players have criticised a manager after he's left. He literally said more than once that he loved Anges style and 'still believes in his system', but there were times where they needed to be less open which is totally fair....
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Ah, you see that's where you've gone wrong. Direct quotes from a player mean nothing when you've already made up your own version of reality.
 
fernadez said:
This was all I felt was needed, but I don't feel that evolution ever took place in the league.
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That's because it never was an evolution; it was a step-change instigated by two senior players, because they knew that, if left to his own devices, the manager would end up losing them the trophy. I thought that was quite explicit in the interview.
 
mudshark said:
That's because it never was an evolution; it was a step-change instigated by two senior players, because they knew that, if left to his own devices, the manager would end up losing them the trophy. I thought that was quite explicit in the interview.
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Did you miss the part where he said it was Ange-led in meetings, and he wanted Romero and VDV to take responsibility on the pitch to make sure other players were reminded of it?
 
tommysvr said:
Did you miss the part where he said it was Ange-led in meetings, and he wanted Romero and VDV to take responsibility on the pitch to make sure other players were reminded of it?
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VDV claims that he and Romeo approached Ange unprompted one day and told him "we need to change some things and play more defensively sometimes."

He then says Ange agreed with somethings and told them to sort it out as the senior members on the pitch.

Does that sound like a manager led evolution of the playing style?

Ange deserves credit for creating an environment where his senior leaders felt comfortable approaching him and discussing the tactical approach. But this was not a manager led evolution, it was a player led one and it makes sense as to why we never saw the same evolution in the league games that Romero and VDV were not playing in, because it wasn't the manager or the coaching that determined how we played in those latter EL games, it was the players and those players weren't available for the league.

Maybe VDV is lying and in actuality it was Ange who initiated this change and coached the play style. We will never actually know, but VDV is telling a very clear version of events.

This is not to diminish Ange's impact, as I said he absolutely deserves credit for creating the environment whereby his players were able to change things with his approval. It just explains the lack of harmony between the play style in the EL and the league. Now it just confirms what many of us thought and makes sense.
 
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tommysvr said:
Did you miss the part where he said it was Ange-led in meetings, and he wanted Romero and VDV to take responsibility on the pitch to make sure other players were reminded of it?
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No, I didn't miss that, but what else would he say? I mean, how else would it ever have worked, "in meetings"? Were van de Ven and Romero going to start doing the team talks? It was clearly instigated by the players themselves. They gave him the "permission" he needed to abandon all his so-called principles, and the beauty of that was, if it all went Pete Tong, he could have pointed the finger back at them, and insisted that, if he'd stuck to his guns, it would all have come up roses.
 
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Bishop said:
It's funny I said the players themselves decided to defend deep and there it is quoted from VDV himself. It just makes sense considering that we didn't play the same way in the league at all, which if this was an evolution of his philosophy you would expect to see some element of it tried in league matches but it never was. It was the players themselves deciding that they wanted to win and they felt that was the approach to take to do it.
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I think that's disingenuous. He makes it very clear that Ange wanted to win. What he makes equally clear is that the players felt there was another modification necessary to make that happen. Ange listened. We won a trophy. I think it is very clear that he was not a fan of the decision to sack him.
 
Bishop said:
VDV claims that he and Romeo approached Ange unprompted one day and told him "we need to change some things and play more defensively sometimes."

He then says Ange agreed with somethings and told them to sort it out as the senior members on the pitch.

Does that sound like a manager led evolution of the playing style?

Ange deserves credit for creating an environment where his senior leaders felt comfortable approaching him and discussing the tactical approach. But this was not a manager led evolution, it was a player led one and it makes sense as to why we never saw the same evolution in the league games that Romero and VDV were not playing in, because it wasn't the manager or the coaching that determined how we played in those latter EL games, it was the players and those players weren't available for the league.

Maybe VDV is lying and in actuality it was Ange who initiated this change and coached the play style. We will never actually know, but VDV is telling a very clear version of events.

This is not to diminish Ange's impact, as I said he absolutely deserves credit for creating the environment whereby his players were able to change things with his approval. It just explains the lack of harmony between the play style in the EL and the league. Now it just confirms what many of us thought and makes sense.
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Of course, what it SHOULD also confirm is that the dressing room and manager were building a relationship, culture and understanding that resulted in a trophy, and that the TRUST built in those last few months could well have seen us tenfold further down a line of development this season -would've been the third season with him.
It's actually laughable when you see what he says and what we did. It seemed pretty clear to me that having learnt to modify and seen the success, we'd have taken that into the new season with even more scope for tweaks to what was an attacking system.
Instead, we literally decided to ditch the project after two years (two years where we had to rebuild from the bones) and not just bring in a new manager/coaches, but go BACK to an opposite type of football!!!!
Those who bang on about 'Arteta needed time' take note.

We'll be very, very lucky to keep him at the current rate.
 
thfcsteff said:
Of course, what it SHOULD also confirm is that the dressing room and manager were building a relationship, culture and understanding that resulted in a trophy, and that the TRUST built in those last few months could well have seen us tenfold further down a line of development this season -would've been the third season with him.
It's actually laughable when you see what he says and what we did. It seemed pretty clear to me that having learnt to modify and seen the success, we'd have taken that into the new season with even more scope for tweaks to what was an attacking system.
Instead, we literally decided to ditch the project after two years (two years where we had to rebuild from the bones) and not just bring in a new manager/coaches, but go BACK to an opposite type of football!!!!
Those who bang on about 'Arteta needed time' take note.

We'll be very, very lucky to keep him at the current rate.
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I hear what you're saying in terms of a possible development from Ange and truthfully that's all I wanted to see from him. Some degree of him understanding the limitations of his squad and taking that into account but he never did. So for me I had no belief that Ange would have have actually used the EL as a stepping stone to evolve his style further.

Again I'll say if that was his intention you would expect to see some movement towards this in the league games that remember he's subsequently said he basically through away anyway. That was his moment to freely experiment as playing his way we were losing week after week after week anyway.

I get that you're a bit of a romantic, but you need to divorce the emotions from the reality. Words are one thing actions tell you everything you need to actually know about a person. I don't know how the way he handled the latter part of the season can give you any confidence he intended on continuing this evolution. The man was stubborn, he said so himself. Why wouldn't he try out this evolved style in those games when for him they no longer were a priority? Why not begin the process of making the subtle evolution a permanent style? He never did because he had no intention of doing so. This season would have just been more of the same unless VDV and Romero once again decided that "somethings need to change"

Frank might be over correcting but frankly we were a shambles defensively and we need to be more solid. Whether Frank can balance some defensive solidity and attacking play remains to be seen and that is what he will be judged on, just like every other manager.
 
Bishop said:
I hear what you're saying in terms of a possible development from Ange and truthfully that's all I wanted to see from him. Some degree of him understanding the limitations of his squad and taking that into account but he never did. So for me I had no belief that Ange would have have actually used the EL as a stepping stone to evolve his style further.

Again I'll say if that was his intention you would expect to see some movement towards this in the league games that remember he's subsequently said he basically through away anyway. That was his moment to freely experiment as playing his way we were losing week after week after week anyway.

I get that you're a bit of a romantic, but you need to divorce the emotions from the reality. Words are one thing actions tell you everything you need to actually know about a person. I don't know how the way he handled the latter part of the season can give you any confidence he intended on continuing this evolution. The man was stubborn, he said so himself. Why wouldn't he try out this evolved style in those games when for him they no longer were a priority? Why not begin the process of making the subtle evolution a permanent style? He never did because he had no intention of doing so. This season would have just been more of the same unless VDV and Romero once again decided that "somethings need to change"

Frank might be over correcting but frankly we were a shambles defensively and we need to be more solid. Whether Frank can balance some defensive solidity and attacking play remains to be seen and that is what he will be judged on, just like every other manager.
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I don't disagree with us being a defensive shambles under Ange, but are we really any better under Frank?
VDV says that they didn't like being so open under Ange and approached him about tightening up, shouldn't they be doing the same with Frank.
Personally I struggle to remember the last time we were solid in defence.
 
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