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Guglielmo Vicario

DubaiSpur said:
Gray's a kid trying to do everything by himself, as young players generally like to do. Him calling for the ball doesn't mean you just give it to him - you're the goalie, you can see what's behind Gray, and it's on you to make the decision as a player with nearly 10 more years of experience.

You pass to Gray in that position, you put him in trouble - better players than Gray have been caught in that scenario.



Hopefully comes up on Twitter soon, mate. Right after the goal, before the camera pans in on him, you can see him gesticulating and yelling at Gray. Then when the camera cuts to Gray being reassured by VdV and Benta, you can see both of them shooting daggers at Vicario behind them.
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He shouldn't have passed the ball to him considering the risk yes but Gray specifically asked for the ball, young or not he started this match that makes him capable. He asked for the ball, further capability he just had poor spatial awareness and thought he had more time on the ball then he did. The fault is primary his with a massive helping from Vicario. Gray's age is no excuse.
 
DubaiSpur said:
Gray's a kid trying to do everything by himself, as young players generally like to do. Him calling for the ball doesn't mean you just give it to him - you're the goalie, you can see what's behind Gray, and it's on you to make the decision as a player with nearly 10 more years of experience.

You pass to Gray in that position, you put him in trouble - better players than Gray have been caught in that scenario.



Hopefully comes up on Twitter soon, mate. Right after the goal, before the camera pans in on him, you can see him gesticulating and yelling at Gray. Then when the camera cuts to Gray being reassured by VdV and Benta, you can see both of them shooting daggers at Vicario behind them.
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Cheers, I didn't see any of that from tv.

As for the goal itself, Vicario is doing what is being asked of him. We play this pattern time and time again where the CM comes for it and plays the ball first time out wide. Gray chose to take a touch, and what happened happened. Didn't we concede a goal where Vic played a similar ball to Sarr or someone and we conceded from it?

If it was an issue then he would not be doing it anymore, but he is being told to play this way. So any complaints if not want to be directed at the player on the ball who fudges up, should be directed at the coaches for persisting with it.....
 
harr1984 said:
Cheers, I didn't see any of that from tv.

As for the goal itself, Vicario is doing what is being asked of him. We play this pattern time and time again where the CM comes for it and plays the ball first time out wide. Gray chose to take a touch, and what happened happened. Didn't we concede a goal where Vic played a similar ball to Sarr or someone and we conceded from it?

If it was an issue then he would not be doing it anymore, but he is being told to play this way. So any complaints if not want to be directed at the player on the ball who fudges up, should be directed at the coaches for persisting with it.....
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See my mate blame the player and never the manager despite it being a clear manager edict
But we have gained from that too
All teams do it and you can capitalise on it if your lucky and work hard
 
Bishop said:
He shouldn't have passed the ball to him considering the risk yes but Gray specifically asked for the ball, young or not he started this match that makes him capable. He asked for the ball, further capability he just had poor spatial awareness and thought he had more time on the ball then he did. The fault is primary his with a massive helping from Vicario. Gray's age is no excuse.
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I disagree mate. Yes Gray asks for the ball and yes, he then messes up when he gets it. But that's what young players do - they're brave, they try to do everything themselves, and they sometimes are too confident in moments like those.

Part of leadership, and just mentoring as someone with more experience, is recognizing when to give them license for that, and when to make a wiser decision than they themselves are capable of making. In this case, Vicario sees the whole field behind Gray, including the Forest players waiting to press him. Gray doesn't, he has his back to them and is over-optimistically asking for it regardless.

I expect far more sense out of Vicario in that situation, than I do Gray. Pass it to Romero yourself, or send it long if you have no options.

harr1984 said:
Cheers, I didn't see any of that from tv.

As for the goal itself, Vicario is doing what is being asked of him. We play this pattern time and time again where the CM comes for it and plays the ball first time out wide. Gray chose to take a touch, and what happened happened. Didn't we concede a goal where Vic played a similar ball to Sarr or someone and we conceded from it?

If it was an issue then he would not be doing it anymore, but he is being told to play this way. So any complaints if not want to be directed at the player on the ball who fudges up, should be directed at the coaches for persisting with it.....
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For sure mate. I don't blame Vicario for some of his errant passes (though in this case I think he made a very poor call to just give it to Gray) - he's just not good at passing out from the back, and it shows in moments like these. But I do blame him, for blaming his teammates, and in particular youngsters (like Gray, and apparently Bergvall last season). When at the very least, he has a huge part to play in goals like these.
 
billyiddo said:
The mistake was Grays, he called for the ball and had ample time/space to play the one time pass to Romero - maybe Vicario should have seen the player behind but as I said even with the situation being what it was Gray had the time to make the pass without the Forest player being a concern.

Romero's pass to Sarr v PSG on the other hand was much worse as the opposition player was in a much more threatening position wrt closing down our player.
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He needed a pass onto his right foot so he could send it first time to Romero. He got a bit of a bouncing pass played to his left foot that meant he had to take a touch to control it before he could pass. He also should’ve got a call from the keeper telling him he needed to pass it first time (not sure whether or not he got one of those).

Also just because Gray calls for the ball it doesn’t mean he needs to be passed the ball. Vicario can see the whole pitch so knows Gray doesn’t have much room. A second or two before there was a simple, safe pass on to VDV, Vic also had the option of going long.
 
DubaiSpur said:
Gray's a kid trying to do everything by himself, as young players generally like to do. Him calling for the ball doesn't mean you just give it to him - you're the goalie, you can see what's behind Gray, and it's on you to make the decision as a player with nearly 10 more years of experience.

You pass to Gray in that position, you put him in trouble - better players than Gray have been caught in that scenario.
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He's a kid yes but he doesn't improve by having his mistakes excused - he needs to learn from it. His awareness of where the opposition were and then his actions once recieving the ball were all poor - it happens.

You want to suck the opposition out of position, that is one of the main reasons you play out from the back and if GKs were not to play to defenders in these situations then it defeats the purpose.
 
harr1984 said:
Cheers, I didn't see any of that from tv.

As for the goal itself, Vicario is doing what is being asked of him. We play this pattern time and time again where the CM comes for it and plays the ball first time out wide. Gray chose to take a touch, and what happened happened. Didn't we concede a goal where Vic played a similar ball to Sarr or someone and we conceded from it?

If it was an issue then he would not be doing it anymore, but he is being told to play this way. So any complaints if not want to be directed at the player on the ball who fudges up, should be directed at the coaches for persisting with it.....
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I think he had to take a touch as it wasn’t the best pass played to him.
 
billyiddo said:
He's a kid yes but he doesn't improve by having his mistakes excused - he needs to learn from it. His awareness of where the opposition were and then his actions once recieving the ball were all poor - it happens.

You want to suck the opposition out of position, that is one of the main reasons you play out from the back and if GKs were not to play to defenders in these situations then it defeats the purpose.
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Oh, I'm sure he'll learn from it - he looked gutted after that goal, and it's never a nice moment to feel like you let down your teammates.

But it's usually the case that a youngster (or really, just someone inexperienced) failing at something isn't the fault of that person alone. It's also the fault of the person who put them in that situation despite knowing the possibility of failure. In this case, that's Vicario, as someone who has ten more years of experience than Gray (or thereabouts).

And, if they do fail - it's usually not great leadership to yell at them for it when you had a hand in creating that situation. At least, that's how I try to lead, and what I understand to be good leadership.
 
billyiddo said:
He's a kid yes but he doesn't improve by having his mistakes excused - he needs to learn from it. His awareness of where the opposition were and then his actions once recieving the ball were all poor - it happens.

You want to suck the opposition out of position, that is one of the main reasons you play out from the back and if GKs were not to play to defenders in these situations then it defeats the purpose.
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That’s nailed it
It’s exactly why everyone does it
It’s why we have scored from those too
It’s hard to do it right every time
I’ve not seen it yet to fully comment on this but I’m glad he showed for the ball even if it became part of an error
Not that long ago we didn’t have any midfielders showing for it
 
glasgowspur said:
Putting aside his merits as a goalkeeper for a moment I can't for the life of me see why he's in the leadership group.
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He is a typical, acting like he thinks a keeper should act whilst none of it looks organic to him.

Hand gestures and shouting and screaming at the back 4, its not him despite it being him, if that makes sense.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
That’s nailed it
It’s exactly why everyone does it
It’s why we have scored from those too
It’s hard to do it right every time
I’ve not seen it yet to fully comment on this but I’m glad he showed for the ball even if it became part of an error
Not that long ago we didn’t have any midfielders showing for it
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The worrying thing is that it's the youngsters showing for the ball, gray, Sarr and Bergvall all want the ball all over the pitch.
Some of our more senior players only appear to want it in cert areas and at certain times.
 
DubaiSpur said:
Oh, I'm sure he'll learn from it - he looked gutted after that goal, and it's never a nice moment to feel like you let down your teammates.

But it's usually the case that a youngster (or really, just someone inexperienced) failing at something isn't the fault of that person alone. It's also the fault of the person who put them in that situation despite knowing the possibility of failure. In this case, that's Vicario, as someone who has ten more years of experience than Gray (or thereabouts).

And, if they do fail - it's usually not great leadership to yell at them for it when you had a hand in creating that situation. At least, that's how I try to lead, and what I understand to be good leadership.
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Vicario can be fairly criticised for how he reacted - i don't agree at all that the decision to pass the ball or even the execution of the pass was wrong however.
 
glasgowspur said:
The worrying thing is that it's the youngsters showing for the ball, gray, Sarr and Bergvall all want the ball all over the pitch.
Some of our more senior players only appear to want it in cert areas and at certain times.
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That because the senior players are either limited or not really motivated to play this way imo
 
Finney Is Back said:
I think he had to take a touch as it wasn’t the best pass played to him.
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I've just watched it back to see if I agree and I just can't - he should have played that first time, there was no issue with the weight of the pass or the ball particularly bobbling or anything like that. Someone of Grays ability could have played that first time no problem....
 
harr1984 said:
I've just watched it back to see if I agree and I just can't - he should have played that first time, there was no issue with the weight of the pass or the ball particularly bobbling or anything like that. Someone of Grays ability could have played that first time no problem....
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It was a mistake, we chalk it off as part and parcel of i) having younger players who will make mistakes as they learn & ii) playing out from the back - what we shouldn't do is try and pin the blame on whoever the spacegoat of the day is to excuse the main offender.
 
billyiddo said:
It was a mistake, we chalked it off as part and parcel of i) having younger players who will make mistakes as they learn & ii) playing out from the back - what we shouldn't do is try and pin the blame on spacegoat of the day
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Not trying to blame Gray at all. I've said a fair few times I'm happy to give Gray and Bergvall plenty of game time regardless of mistakes. The only point I'm making is that had Gray done what others have done in previous games and played it first time we wouldn't be having this conversation and it's certainly not on Vicario....
 
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