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Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

Baleforce said:
Football is a global game. Most fans of any big club are not local.

Thats an inevitable result of its commercial success.
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Like @billyiddo said though, it is undeniably different for those of us who live and work amongst Arsenal fans who are insufferable and unbearable. You’ve said your experience with them is different and they’re ok with you and that’s fine, I think you’re very lucky but that’s not my experience of dealing with them and I can imagine most on this board who have to encounter them every day have similar experiences. Again not saying it makes us more of a fan but it’s different, I don’t see how there’s any debate about that.
 
Lilbaz said:
The word support. Wanting your team to lose isn't support.

I can understand why the fans felt that way. I disagree. But i won't criticise them for it. But using the word support in that context is wrong. It isn't.
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It's actually nuts how many times you've had to repeat this point in this thread because I would've thought it was obvious.

People are allowed to feel how they feel but we can at least be accurate in the words to describe the position one is taking, if you're hoping for your team to lose, you are categorically not supporting your team. If you feel called out by that then if anything you have a problem with your own stance, accurately labelling it for what it is isn't the problem.

My other point which is probably unnecessary, is the amount of times I see people claim "I ditched social media years ago" like it's a badge of honour whilst literally that message posting on social media platform. We have grown ass adult males squabbling over which emoji / reactions someone has used in response to a post and people posting pictures of their dog / trip to the stadium - It might be a pretty warped version of it, but it is indeed social media, get over yourselves!

I doubt the above will help the general needly vibe but accuracy of speech isn't the enemy. Imagine how moody it'd be if we lose against Sheffield and Chelsea win dropping 5th to that lot, let's hope we get the job done.
 
Jurgen the German said:
You’re missing the point. Even if we had won on Tuesday it wasn’t in our hands. I think many of the fanbase could have lived with Arsenal winning the league if we had secured the top 4 but what good would it have done if we had won on Tuesday and then Villa won on Sunday anyway?
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Nearly 48 hours after this giant fudging mess of a night, I sadly think everyone is missing everyone's point. It isn't exclusive to one viewpoint...
 
Jurgen the German said:
Like @billyiddo said though, it is undeniably different for those of us who live and work amongst Arsenal fans who are insufferable and unbearable. You’ve said your experience with them is different and they’re ok with you and that’s fine, I think you’re very lucky but that’s not my experience of dealing with them and I can imagine most on this board who have to encounter them every day have similar experiences. Again not saying it makes us more of a fan but it’s different, I don’t see how there’s any debate about that.
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I know many an Arsenal fan personally and proffesionally and if they get too above their station I just remind them that they list a kiddy fiddler in Graham Rix as a legend on their website and it generally reels them back in. What's good for the goose is good for the gander and all that. Juvenile yes, at their level....absolutely
 
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thfcsteff said:
Appreciate the response mate.
I don't agree with the 'a bit Conte' line, I have heard him as prickly several times before. Conte threw the players and everyone under the bus, Ange normally takes responsibility when a result has been poor. Against City we played well and were absolutely undone by details.
I think his reaction was an instant emotional response to having been barracked from behind the benches among other things.
I still have't really seen any direct 'you should not want us to lose football matches' quotes from him, more than him expressing his feelings that he doesn't get it but each to their own.
I think the 'fragile foundations' comment was absolutely in order, I think he's right personally.
As you said, we can all choose our reactions. I, like you, am decades in and know gooners. I am not unhappy that we have virtually denied them the title, but still wish we'd won the match because I always want us to win.
I appreciate that in some parts (seemingly these) it makes me a minority.
Like you mate, I hope he gets the chance to work.
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I'm not sure the "fragile foundations" comment was in order.

If it was necessary or useful to say that he could have said that at any point. It came at this point for a reason, and that reason imo wasn't because this was a particular good time for it. Perhaps he just realised this, but even so.

It was imo most likely an emotional outburst and I see no reason to condemn or defend it beyond saying that it's understandable given the circumstances. But he probably shouldn't make a habit of it because it won't generate a unifying or overall positive response from fans. If he wanted to make this as a difficult and important point he could have waited until he could do so with more clarity and preparation.

On the "fragility" of the fan base... Sure, we're a bit fragile. That's a result of results and performances. When we were flying prey Chelsea we were less fragile. When we're in a slump we're more fragile. Just like every other fan base. Give us 3-4 league titles in a row and we'll be as not fragile as City fans. Just like City fans were as fragile as us before they got their cash induced success.

You don't change that by calling us out on being fragile. You change that through consistency of performances and results.
 
billyiddo said:
Yeah it's not nice having your support called in to question is it? Perhaps you can understand then why I've taken offense to the multitude of posters on this actual messageboard who have been doing so over the last 48 hours towards those of us who wanted City to win? That style of posting is only coming from one side on here afterall, regardless of what has been flying around in the general social media space outside of here.
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I think almost all Spurs fans had at least somewhat mixed emotions going into and during that game.

When a group of people have mixed emotions about something different people will end up at different conclusions. Those conclusions will be based on a host of factors outside the actual situation with the game Of course on here and on social media we will express our opinions and disagree.

I wish we could do that without calling each others support of the team into question. Without being that devisive. I wish more people could be understanding that different people come to different conclusions on this.

That is obviously not a wish I will have granted any time soon.
 
Jurgen the German said:
You’re missing the point. Even if we had won on Tuesday it wasn’t in our hands. I think many of the fanbase could have lived with Arsenal winning the league if we had secured the top 4 but what good would it have done if we had won on Tuesday and then Villa won on Sunday anyway?
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For me we do everything to get us in a the best possible position to capitalise on a slip up (i said on the day even giving everything city would probably beat us anyway). But losing the game on purpose was giving up on the chance.

that is what i think ange was alluding to with the fragility remarks. Some of our fans had given up already. Looking for damage limitation rather than going for it.
 
braineclipse said:
I'm not sure the "fragile foundations" comment was in order.

If it was necessary or useful to say that he could have said that at any point. It came at this point for a reason, and that reason imo wasn't because this was a particular good time for it. Perhaps he just realised this, but even so.

It was imo most likely an emotional outburst and I see no reason to condemn or defend it beyond saying that it's understandable given the circumstances. But he probably shouldn't make a habit of it because it won't generate a unifying or overall positive response from fans. If he wanted to make this as a difficult and important point he could have waited until he could do so with more clarity and preparation.

On the "fragility" of the fan base... Sure, we're a bit fragile. That's a result of results and performances. When we were flying prey Chelsea we were less fragile. When we're in a slump we're more fragile. Just like every other fan base. Give us 3-4 league titles in a row and we'll be as not fragile as City fans. Just like City fans were as fragile as us before they got their cash induced success.

You don't change that by calling us out on being fragile. You change that through consistency of performances and results.
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If the reports are true of staff at the club being blasé about it all, maybe he felt a jolt was needed.

With due respect to all involved at Spurs from inside and out, you could point to many a case of fragility, I don't think it's left field to suggest it, we will find out from time if it was wise saying it public. Maddison said the same recently as did MVDV about having to win things, so maybe that message is working at a player level
 
braineclipse said:
Progress both short and medium term.

To play like that against City. Udogie and Davies out, Bissouma out, Werner and Solomon out, Richarlison out. Bentancur still returning to fitness. After a tough couple of months in a strange game.

We played our football, made it really difficult for City and easily could have both gotten something from the game and also won it. A lot of positives to take from that.
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the sequences we put together brought home to roost the lack of a top class forward.

Kane, Defoe, Ferdinand, Keane, Berbatov, Klinsmann, Lineker, Greaves, hell even Pav or Armstrong would thrive in this team.

I don't have much gripe with Ange, but his idea that Sonny can play as a 9 is for me flawed. From the left with a top class forward, he's effective. With nobody in the middle to draw players away / provide the focus Son is found wanting.
 
Jurgen the German said:
You’re missing the point. Even if we had won on Tuesday it wasn’t in our hands. I think many of the fanbase could have lived with Arsenal winning the league if we had secured the top 4 but what good would it have done if we had won on Tuesday and then Villa won on Sunday anyway?
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It was in our hands to force Villa to get a result against Palace.
 
braineclipse said:
I'm not sure the "fragile foundations" comment was in order.

If it was necessary or useful to say that he could have said that at any point. It came at this point for a reason, and that reason imo wasn't because this was a particular good time for it. Perhaps he just realised this, but even so.

It was imo most likely an emotional outburst and I see no reason to condemn or defend it beyond saying that it's understandable given the circumstances. But he probably shouldn't make a habit of it because it won't generate a unifying or overall positive response from fans. If he wanted to make this as a difficult and important point he could have waited until he could do so with more clarity and preparation.

On the "fragility" of the fan base... Sure, we're a bit fragile. That's a result of results and performances. When we were flying prey Chelsea we were less fragile. When we're in a slump we're more fragile. Just like every other fan base. Give us 3-4 league titles in a row and we'll be as not fragile as City fans. Just like City fans were as fragile as us before they got their cash induced success.

You don't change that by calling us out on being fragile. You change that through consistency of performances and results.
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I think you're right. I think the main points of fragility he has referred to have been consistent and clear without specificially throwing people under the bus. He has a mission and a method, some people within the club whom he works with are not operating at the same standards he expects. The truth is, tis hard listening and reading for us all. We don't like it. We'd much rather he was 'nicer' to us and told us he 'understands'. Just like some fans don't like the fact that he has largely refused to switch frommhis formational beliefs in order to get a quick bump, because long-term, that approach breeds circles not straight lines forward.

I find it perplexing and slightly ironic that so many of our supporters are so up-in-arms about his comments and ready to take umbrage when he hasn't even specifically said he was referring to fans.
And if he was, so fudging what?
If people who were relieved to see us lose on Tuesday are OK feeling that way, why would they care what he thinks? And why would they not simply shrug shoulders, sigh and get on with life, knowing that the bloke has a specific objective? Why would he not be afforded the belief that he is (in fact) working very hard to try and change things at the club with a consistency of performances and results?
 
thfcsteff said:
I think you're right. I think the main points of fragility he has referred to have been consistent and clear without specificially throwing people under the bus. He has a mission and a method, some people within the club whom he works with are not operating at the same standards he expects. The truth is, tis hard listening and reading for us all. We don't like it. We'd much rather he was 'nicer' to us and told us he 'understands'. Just like some fans don't like the fact that he has largely refused to switch frommhis formational beliefs in order to get a quick bump, because long-term, that approach breeds circles not straight lines forward.

I find it perplexing and slightly ironic that so many of our supporters are so up-in-arms about his comments and ready to take umbrage when he hasn't even specifically said he was referring to fans.
And if he was, so fudging what?
If people who were relieved to see us lose on Tuesday are OK feeling that way, why would they care what he thinks? And why would they not simply shrug shoulders, sigh and get on with life, knowing that the bloke has a specific objective? Why would he not be afforded the belief that he is (in fact) working very hard to try and change things at the club with a consistency of performances and results?
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Absolutely spot on, I wanted us to lose, I'm absolutely ok with him thinking that's odd, I want him to think that as a manager whose currency is win. I'm not going to conflate the fact he has lost games he set out win to try and offset the guilt. In fact it's done, we move on and I'm excited for what the summer would bring
 
Grays_1890 said:
If the reports are true of staff at the club being blasé about it all, maybe he felt a jolt was needed.

With due respect to all involved at Spurs from inside and out, you could point to many a case of fragility, I don't think it's left field to suggest it, we will find out from time if it was wise saying it public. Maddison said the same recently as did MVDV about having to win things, so maybe that message is working at a player level
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Unless it becomes a repeated/regular things I don't think those public statements make much of a difference one way or the other.

If there are people at the club he works with who are not up to his required level of whatever it is he feels he needs from them to move forward in a good way that needs to be sorted.

I'm quite happy to see him get frustrated. I wish he was a bit more careful in his wording, but that happens. I hope if there are backroom issues to deal with they will be dealt with effectively. I don't think a public statement does that, but it may be a part of it.
 
thfcsteff said:
Nearly 48 hours after this giant fudging mess of a night, I sadly think everyone is missing everyone's point. It isn't exclusive to one viewpoint...
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I don’t think I have. I can fully understand why some fans wanted us to win and have a sniff of CL football on Sunday. I didn’t agree but I got it. Those of us who didn’t want us to win didn’t admonish those who wanted spurs to win like it was the other way round.
 
Mcfee said:
It was in our hands to force Villa to get a result against Palace.
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And if you can’t see why that alone wasn’t enough of a carrot for some of us to get behind the team when the downside was we hand the advantage to our most hated rival then there isn’t much more to say. I’m just a bit fed up of some of the insincere moralising from fans on here and in the real world, Arsenal fans, spurs fans, other clubs fans etc when most of them given the same circumstances would do exactly the fudging same.
 
Jurgen the German said:
I don’t think I have. I can fully understand why some fans wanted us to win and have a sniff of CL football on Sunday. I didn’t agree but I got it. Those of us who didn’t want us to win didn’t admonish those who wanted spurs to win like it was the other way round.
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All I'll say is that as Spurs supporters, wanting us to win matches has to be easier to understand in general than not wanting us to win football matches (I appreciate there is added context in this situation but the point remains clear I think)...
 
thfcsteff said:
I think you're right. I think the main points of fragility he has referred to have been consistent and clear without specificially throwing people under the bus. He has a mission and a method, some people within the club whom he works with are not operating at the same standards he expects. The truth is, tis hard listening and reading for us all. We don't like it. We'd much rather he was 'nicer' to us and told us he 'understands'. Just like some fans don't like the fact that he has largely refused to switch frommhis formational beliefs in order to get a quick bump, because long-term, that approach breeds circles not straight lines forward.

I find it perplexing and slightly ironic that so many of our supporters are so up-in-arms about his comments and ready to take umbrage when he hasn't even specifically said he was referring to fans.
And if he was, so fudging what?
If people who were relieved to see us lose on Tuesday are OK feeling that way, why would they care what he thinks? And why would they not simply shrug shoulders, sigh and get on with life, knowing that the bloke has a specific objective? Why would he not be afforded the belief that he is (in fact) working very hard to try and change things at the club with a consistency of performances and results?
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Any fragility within the club that leads to less progress needs to be sorted out. In a way I'm glad to see him frustrated, he shows and expresses his intent to deal with stuff. Good.

The way his statement was read/experienced was as a criticism of how fans support the club. His wording allowed for this interpretation, again imo because it wasn't a calm composed statement, it was an emotional outburst.

Football is usually fairly simple emotionally. Not easy, not easy to deal with, real strong emotions. But simple. Win = happy, lose = sad/angry/upset.

Once in a while it's not that simple. Most (perhaps even almost all?) people who wanted us to win also had that "oh fudge" feeling about us winning handing Arsenal the title. Most people who wanted us to lose also had that "oh fudge" feeling about wanting us to lose, about missing out on a chance of CL football.

When someone criticises us and our feelings about what we do are simple it's a lot easier to shrug our shoulders. When there's a part of us inside that aligns with the criticism shrugging our shoulders becomes much harder.
 
I never have liked the term fan as it's an abbreviation of fanatic and I've never considered myself to be one. Over the last few decades social media and all other from of media have fuelled the climate where expectations of supporters far beyond what can be achieved and a blame culture. Few seem to accept it's a sport that should be enjoyable to watch in their leisure time, the inane Shankly quote rings in everyone's ears and like spoilt children they cannot accept getting their own way. I'm pleased to see our manager is tinkled off with the attitude of our supporters who wanted to lose, Bill Nicholson and Keith Burkinshaw would never have condoned that, but they were old farts I expect. I always expect our team to be trying to win, if they don't I'm disappointed but move on to next game.
 
Surfless said:
the sequences we put together brought home to roost the lack of a top class forward.

Kane, Defoe, Ferdinand, Keane, Berbatov, Klinsmann, Lineker, Greaves, hell even Pav or Armstrong would thrive in this team.

I don't have much gripe with Ange, but his idea that Sonny can play as a 9 is for me flawed. From the left with a top class forward, he's effective. With nobody in the middle to draw players away / provide the focus Son is found wanting.
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Son can and has done for years (every time Kane got injured)

Is that where we/Ange want to play him? I don't think so, it's about what options he had at the time and the fact that Son is literally and statistically one of the best finishers

Your list is a little over the top, Kane, Greaves, Berbatov, Kinsmann thrive in most teams ever created ..
 
Oh boy....can we start talking about the things that have been happening on the actual pitch??

Can anyone explain why we have progressively looked worse since January (when generally the number of injuries has reduced compared to the autumn)? In particular, why have we mostly looked worse the more time we've had between games?

Is there any previous precedent we've seen this for a manager in their first year that ending up being successful (either with us or other clubs)?

I worry that this is he reverse of what would be expected if a mangers methods were a) effective long-term and b) being gotten used to/absorbed by the playing squad.

I'd love a constructive conversation about this please.
 
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