Set Pieces

[scaramanga]

I wasn't saying that there was. Indeed, surely the lack of correlation indicates that some teams are better at converting corners into goals than others (there would be perfect correlation if every team was exactly as good as each other at defending and attacking corners).

What point of mine were you disagreeing with, and/or what point of your own were you trying to support with the lack of correlation?

There's a correlation between goals from corners and league position too, I believe.

It would suggest that working on corners either has a detrimental effect on the rest of a team's play (logical, assuming training time is finite), or that it's the last resort of desparate teams (also makes sense - the risk if losing possession matters less if you're unlikely to keep the ball anyway).

 

[scaramanga]

I get that; and that crosses in general are highly ineffective.

It's just that ours rarely even reach a white shirt, and often don't clear the first man.

Most corners don't reach a man in the same shirt as the corner taker, as @milo has already mentioned:

 

[scaramanga]

Whilst we're talking about wasting our time on pointless measures, 38 crosses yesterday.

Played right into Wiggy's hands with that.

 

[SteveAWOL]

Maybe Eriksen et al need to work on something like this...

https://twitter.com/x/status/899522296087531520

 

[Pirate55]

Did you see that save Burki pulled off from Dier's header? You couldn't have put a better corner in and we couldn't have attacked it better. Unlucky!

Yes it was a great save from a good header.

However, in other games tonight , Liverpool actually scored two (crucial) goals from corners. Sevilla scored a (crucial) goal from a corner and another from a free-kick. Real Madrid also scored from a corner and Monaco from a free kick.

And that is just in games today!!!! If it were an isolated aberration it would be understandable, but it has been an ongoing feature of our play.

We have one of Europe's best (or at least he was) dead ball takers in Eriksen. How long hasn't he scored from a free kick now? His corners have been generally absolutely dire - with most not getting over the first man.

On corners and free-kicks, we must have surely a team containing probably the most players who are good headers of the ball on the pitch at any one time. In no particular order - Toby, Verts, Dier, Kane, Alli, Sanchez all represent considerable threats in the air. When was the last time one of our CBs actually scored from a free-kick or corner?

Put the two factors together and there is really no excuse for our appalling return from these numerous dead ball situations. It has cost us dear. Chelsea scored from a free kick against us. Arsenal from a free kick against us. Both were crucial first goals and resulted in us losing both games. To ignore the importance of these situations is unforgivable imo.

 

[braineclipse]

Yes it was a great save from a good header.

However, in other games tonight , Liverpool actually scored two (crucial) goals from corners. Sevilla scored a (crucial) goal from a corner and another from a free-kick. Real Madrid also scored from a corner and Monaco from a free kick.

And that is just in games today!!!! If it were an isolated aberration it would be understandable, but it has been an ongoing feature of our play.

We have one of Europe's best (or at least he was) dead ball takers in Eriksen. How long hasn't he scored from a free kick now? His corners have been generally absolutely dire - with most not getting over the first man.

On corners and free-kicks, we must have surely a team containing probably the most players who are good headers of the ball on the pitch at any one time. In no particular order - Toby, Verts, Dier, Kane, Alli, Sanchez all represent considerable threats in the air. When was the last time one of our CBs actually scored from a free-kick or corner?

Put the two factors together and there is really no excuse for our appalling return from these numerous dead ball situations. It has cost us dear. Chelsea scored from a free kick against us. Arsenal from a free kick against us. Both were crucial first goals and resulted in us losing both games. To ignore the importance of these situations is unforgivable imo.

Whoscored.com has us with 5 set piece goals in the league this season. Tied 4th for most set piece goals. 2 goals behind Manchester United who are top with 7. Liverpool are 10th with 3.

Yet you bring up Liverpool because they scored from a couple last night. And other teams that I'm guessing you saw score in a highlight show. Giving zero attention to the teams that didn't score from a set piece, including Dortmund who we played against.

This is the match of the day effect Scara mentioned earlier. This is cherry picking. This is confirmation bias.

 

[Pirate55]

Whoscored.com has us with 5 set piece goals in the league this season. Tied 4th for most set piece goals. 2 goals behind Manchester United who are top with 7. Liverpool are 10th with 3.

Yet you bring up Liverpool because they scored from a couple last night. And other teams that I'm guessing you saw score in a highlight show. Giving zero attention to the teams that didn't score from a set piece, including Dortmund who we played against.

This is the match of the day effect Scara mentioned earlier. This is cherry picking. This is confirmation bias.

It is not cherry picking. It is a fact. Did both Arse and Chelsea not score against us from set pieces? Were there not 6 goals scored from set pieces in games last night (excluding pens).

Until you and others recognise this is our achilles heel, we will not win anything. Tight games are decided by small margins. We are not giving ourselves the best chances to win anything with our poor return from set pieces.

As for the Whoscored.com stat, please would you identify the 5 set pieces we have apparently scored from in the League this season.

 

[braineclipse]

It is not cherry picking. It is a fact. Did both Arse and Chelsea not score against us from set pieces? Were there not 6 goals scored from set pieces in games last night (excluding pens).

Until you and others recognise this is our achilles heel, we will not win anything. Tight games are decided by small margins. We are not giving ourselves the best chances to win anything with our poor return from set pieces.

As for the Whoscored.com stat, please would you identify the 5 set pieces we have apparently scored from in the League this season.

Cherry picking. Picking facts that fit one's argument and focusing on them over other facts. Yes what you mentioned were facts, it's still cherry picking.

6 set piece goals you say. In 8 games. So a set piece scoring rate of a goal every 2.7 games.

We have 5 set piece goals (trusting whoscored to do their job) in 12 league games. A scoring rate of a goal every 2.4 games.

Yet you use the 6 goals last night scored by other teams as an argument in your set piece narrative. In the league we've scored from set pieces at a higher rate than CL clubs did yesterday. What you did was cherry picking individual data points (facts), picking those that confirmed your argument (confirmation bias). 5 minutes looking at a wider sample of non cherry picked stats paints a very different picture. You can choose to keep cherry picking if you want.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Cherry picking. Picking facts that fit one's argument and focusing on them over other facts. Yes what you mentioned were facts, it's still cherry picking.

6 set piece goals you say. In 8 games. So a set piece scoring rate of a goal every 2.7 games.

We have 5 set piece goals (trusting whoscored to do their job) in 12 league games. A scoring rate of a goal every 2.4 games.

Yet you use the 6 goals last night scored by other teams as an argument in your set piece narrative. In the league we've scored from set pieces at a higher rate than CL clubs did yesterday. What you did was cherry picking individual data points (facts), picking those that confirmed your argument (confirmation bias). 5 minutes looking at a wider sample of non cherry picked stats paints a very different picture. You can choose to keep cherry picking if you want.

Isn't that what you do with stats? Pick the ones you like to prove your point

 

[Pirate55]

Cherry picking. Picking facts that fit one's argument and focusing on them over other facts. Yes what you mentioned were facts, it's still cherry picking.

6 set piece goals you say. In 8 games. So a set piece scoring rate of a goal every 2.7 games.

We have 5 set piece goals (trusting whoscored to do their job) in 12 league games. A scoring rate of a goal every 2.4 games.

Yet you use the 6 goals last night scored by other teams as an argument in your set piece narrative. In the league we've scored from set pieces at a higher rate than CL clubs did yesterday. What you did was cherry picking individual data points (facts), picking those that confirmed your argument (confirmation bias). 5 minutes looking at a wider sample of non cherry picked stats paints a very different picture. You can choose to keep cherry picking if you want.

Stats are only as good as their source material. Again, please name those five league games we have scored from corners or free kicks this season.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Stats are only as good as their source material. Again, please name those five league games we have scored from corners or free kicks this season.

http://www.squawka.com/teams/totten...ue#season-2017/2018#819#all-matches#1-12#type

Squawka also says 5, 2 from corners and 3 from crossed free kicks.

BC match live text service

Burnley:
Goal! Tottenham Hotspur 1, Burnley 0. Dele Alli (Tottenham Hotspur) right footed shot from very close range to the bottom right corner following a corner.

Everton:
August is over. It can mean only one thing - Harry Kane scores.

Whether he meant to or not is a different matter. A corner from the left swings through everyone and out to right, where Kane is able to pick up possession. He takes a glance up and curls the ball over the diving Jordan Pickford and in.

Was it a cross? Was it a shot? Whatever it was, it means Kane now has 100 goals for Spurs.

Liverpool:
Goal! Tottenham Hotspur 4, Liverpool 1. Harry Kane (Tottenham Hotspur) right footed shot from the centre of the box to the bottom right corner following a set piece situation.

Goal! Tottenham Hotspur 3, Liverpool 1. Dele Alli (Tottenham Hotspur) right footed shot from the centre of the box to the bottom left corner following a set piece situation.

Thats 4, cant find the 5th, but not all the text services are available. So its probably fair to say 5 isnt inaccurate. Multiple sources and 4 verified.

What now?

 

[Pirate55]

http://www.squawka.com/teams/totten...ue#season-2017/2018#819#all-matches#1-12#type

Squawka also says 5, 2 from corners and 3 from crossed free kicks.

BC match live text service

Burnley:
Goal! Tottenham Hotspur 1, Burnley 0. Dele Alli (Tottenham Hotspur) right footed shot from very close range to the bottom right corner following a corner.

Everton:
August is over. It can mean only one thing - Harry Kane scores.

Whether he meant to or not is a different matter. A corner from the left swings through everyone and out to right, where Kane is able to pick up possession. He takes a glance up and curls the ball over the diving Jordan Pickford and in.

Was it a cross? Was it a shot? Whatever it was, it means Kane now has 100 goals for Spurs.

Liverpool:
Goal! Tottenham Hotspur 4, Liverpool 1. Harry Kane (Tottenham Hotspur) right footed shot from the centre of the box to the bottom right corner following a set piece situation.

Goal! Tottenham Hotspur 3, Liverpool 1. Dele Alli (Tottenham Hotspur) right footed shot from the centre of the box to the bottom left corner following a set piece situation.

Thats 4, cant find the 5th, but not all the text services are available. So its probably fair to say 5 isnt inaccurate. Multiple sources and 4 verified.

What now?

That just shows how inaccurate those definitions are. Only one is really even partially justified . None came DIRECTLY from a planned set piece “situation”. Not a single one. QED.

 

[scaramanga]

That just shows how inaccurate those definitions are. Only one is really even partially justified . None came DIRECTLY from a planned set piece “situation”. Not a single one. QED.

Why do a chess board and a pigeon keep popping into my mind?

 

[90291Spur]

Why do a chess board and a pigeon keep popping into my mind?

LSD?

 

[braineclipse]

Stats are only as good as their source material. Again, please name those five league games we have scored from corners or free kicks this season.

I see no point if you're only going to keep cherry picking. Would you question the stat if it supported your narrative?

 

[Pirate55]

I see no point if you're only going to keep cherry picking. Would you question the stat if it supported your narrative?

As Scara and others know, I don't have much faith in stats - as the underlying sources/definitions must be thoroughly interrogated before any reliance at all is placed on them. This healthy scepticism comes from having studied Statistics as part of my course at Cambridge.

You will no doubt have seen my critique of SteveAwols two posts in the Gooner thread showing two very different xG results from that game. He agreed the methodology still needs to be tightened up and that it was a "blunt instrument".

It again demonstrates that those that use stats in football to argue a particular point can equally be misled. The only stats that can be definitively relied upon in my opinion are those that are factual - i.e. numbers of goals, corners, free-kicks. Those are totally objective and verifiable. Others such as possession, xG, accuracy of pass are subjective and reliant on someone's opinion to make a judgement. It may or may not be based on some arbitrarily laid down "rules" but in the final analysis, it is not, repeat, not based on actual facts.

Be truthful now, how many of the goals identified above by Nayim as coming from corners or free-kicks would you call as actually having been directly created from that dead-ball situation? You still haven't identified for me the five goals you put forward by Who.scored ?

 

[scaramanga]

This healthy scepticism comes from having studied Statistics as part of my course at Cambridge.

You clearly didn't listen.

Be truthful now, how many of the goals identified above by Nayim as coming from corners or free-kicks would you call as actually having been directly created from that dead-ball situation? You still haven't identified for me the five goals you put forward by Who.scored ?

What does it matter? As long as they're all interpreted in the same manner.

 

[milo]

Yes it was a great save from a good header.

However, in other games tonight , Liverpool actually scored two (crucial) goals from corners. Sevilla scored a (crucial) goal from a corner and another from a free-kick. Real Madrid also scored from a corner and Monaco from a free kick.

And that is just in games today!!!! If it were an isolated aberration it would be understandable, but it has been an ongoing feature of our play.

We have one of Europe's best (or at least he was) dead ball takers in Eriksen. How long hasn't he scored from a free kick now? His corners have been generally absolutely dire - with most not getting over the first man.

On corners and free-kicks, we must have surely a team containing probably the most players who are good headers of the ball on the pitch at any one time. In no particular order - Toby, Verts, Dier, Kane, Alli, Sanchez all represent considerable threats in the air. When was the last time one of our CBs actually scored from a free-kick or corner?

Put the two factors together and there is really no excuse for our appalling return from these numerous dead ball situations. It has cost us dear. Chelsea scored from a free kick against us. Arsenal from a free kick against us. Both were crucial first goals and resulted in us losing both games. To ignore the importance of these situations is unforgivable imo.

 

[milo]

Isn't that what you do with stats? Pick the ones you like to prove your point

You shouldn't. You should try to use them to challenge your prejudices and test hypothesis.

 

[Pirate55]

You clearly didn't listen.


What does it matter? As long as they're all interpreted in the same manner.

Thats precisely my point. They are NOT all interpreted in the same manner. Lets take free kicks, in my view a goal from a corner or free kick is only one that is scored directly or from the first contact thereafter. Others take the view that it should count for example if the free-kick is played short and then crossed for someone to score, then that is a goal from that free-kick. Others may say it is two (or maybe three) touches after the free-kick has been taken. Some will apply a time criteria - say five, ten, fifteen or twenty seconds (maybe more if the Whoscored definition is to be applied). The answer is that all these are subjective - so it really does mater how they are interpreted.