*** OMT Spurs v Aston Villa ***

[braineclipse]

Sorry Brain, but you won't convince me the two things were merely coincidence. Although you curiously say they weren't related. You eloquently try to minimise Dembele's role in the team, whereas I maintain he has been one of the vital cogs in our recent good run. He simply has strengths others don't and adds a steeliness to our midfield which allows others, particularly Eriksen, to flourish. To have too many "re-cyclers" or "fast passers" make us too one dimensional. I would be very surprised if Poch left Dembele out of our big games ( especially the Goons) and I think taking him off on Monday was to give him a rest and keep him fresh for the battles ahead. We will soon see how Poch rates him.

If there was a (strong) causal relationship between Dembele going off and us losing control in the game how does that work? Just saying "steeliness" really doesn't explain anything. I've explicitly asked for examples of what he does and how it works.

Could you also explain why we have seen us lose control of games with Dembele in them? What is it about what he does that keeps us in control that's failed in those games?

Remember we also had Dier in the team. I don't think we could be accused of having too many fast passers or being one dimensional. If anything Mason made us more balanced.

One further point. All the big successful teams in the EPL in recent years tend to have a major physical player in midfield. Matic, Toure, Schweinstieger/Schneiderlin or going further back, Vierra and Keane. Ar5ena1's lack of success in recent years (apart from the last two cups) is largely down to them never replacing Vierra in midfield but relying too heavily on skilful passers IMO

Again. We have that in Dier too.

Dembele is also quite different to many of those in that he wasn't playing as a deep/defensive midfielder for us against Villa. Also you're talking almost exclusively about world class players with a multitude of strengths. Dembele had the potential to become world class, so far he's not lived up to his potential.

This is funny. People have come with a new angle. As a fellow poster put it. continue looking for evidence to minimise Dembele's performance on that day. All we needed to do during that 10 minutes of madness was to cool the passage of play, slow the ball down, hold on it - make Aston press and become more tired. Isn't it funny that when Lamela held on to the ball for a while, things cooled down? The good thing is that as the team becomes more experienced, they will know what to do during such times.

Now let's think back to the Liverpool game when gegen-pressing started - what happened? Players that didnt have the technical ability to hold on to the ball, give a good pass were floundering. One of Dembele's strength is that it is very difficult to get the ball off him unless you foul him and now that he has started sniffing again around the goal area - that is good news. Infact it is wunderbar news for Spurs, we have another arrow in our midfield's bow. How anyone can try to write it down makes one wonder if we are fans of Spurs or fans of certain players ...

Of course the above is my personal opinion. I am not a football coach. I also grew up with a different football philosophy than most in the UK. Street ball rules ...

Could I equally claim that people are minimizing Mason's performance by stating that we lost control as a result of him coming on? I see Dembele differently to you and Pirate it would seem, or rather his impact on various game situations differently. But it's a question of strengths and weaknesses.

How does "slowing the ball down" make Villa press more and become more tired? Isn't it harder to maintain a high press when the ball is moved around quickly? And again, did Dembele actually do what you claim is important in the 10 minutes leading up to the sub? Again claims are being made about what Dembele does, but without any examples being given with him actually doing that in the period leading up to the sub (surely the most comparable game situation to the period directly after the sub).

Lamela held on to the ball in the corners in the final minutes. You really want us to start doing that around the time Mason came on when a goal ahead at home? Seems like a really bad idea to me.

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For a quick comparison, as asking people to watch the 20 minutes of football surrounding the sub in question might be asking too much, some passing maps from squawka. To be perfectly clear and forthright the slider works in 5 minute intervals so it's probably closer to 8-9 minutes for Dembele and 11-12 minutes for Mason. But I don't think that makes much of a difference. Again, to be perfectly clear, I'm not just trying to prove my point with stats or claiming that stats have all the answers. I'm using this as a discussion about what actually happened in the game for everyone to see with their own eyes really isn't happening.

Other than that Dembele was fouled once, fouled an opponent once and lost the ball once. And again I will point out that his one dribble and winning a foul was a good piece of play, him showing some of his strengths. But minutes later he tried again and lost the ball.

So I ask again. What was it Dembele actually did that made him so important to us keeping control in the game?

 

[GrimsbyYid]

If you want to apportion blame without context so be it. The lad is coming back from injury. Just spoke to my mate who went and he said the crowd were silly, moaning because we were coasting, getting antsy at 2-0 when with 3 big games this week, conserving was smart. He said he thought that was a factor in the 15 min spell where Vanilla pushed us. I agree with him. Anyway, let's be happy to agree on Lamela. This was a massive coming of age for him, he became a 'senior pro' tonight IMO.

To be fair the only reason I actually said it was because of my history with him, more of a tongue in cheek ribbing, but it was also incredibly sloppy play which led to a worrying 10 minutes. Just hope it shows people who want him to walk straight into the team it would be huge mistake; coming back through european games is a much more sensible approach.

Son though, he can walk straight back into the team.

 

[GrimsbyYid]

Only if calls for any of our midfielders starting is laughable.

He made one mistake...

Objectively his mistake was smaller than Dier's mistake gifting the ball to Gestede a bit earlier.

Erm, it objectively wasn't smaller than Dier's as it led to a goal... usually mistakes are subjective, you've chosen the one time it isn't to say that

As for calling any of our midfielders to start laughable? Really? REALLY?!! So Dier who has been a rock all season and giving us much needed protection is laughable to say he should start? Or an argument for Alli who looks dangerous, got 2 goals (more than mason did the whole of last season (31 games) and looks a potentially world class player? More than Dembele who's also got 2 goals (in 2 games), has been exceptional the past two games?! You're saying it's equally as laughable to want these guys to start over Mason who has just come back from injury and even fully fit doesn't offer the same threat?

I know I ruined it by the last subjective remark but the stats speak too

 

[Pirate55]

Brain, I think you need to lift your myopic focus on a ten minute slot before and after the substitution. We had almost total control in the first half and Dembele was an integral part of that. Equally, he has been part of some of our most famous performances, most notably Chelsea at home in the 5-3. Certainly, we have also lost games he has played in and he has also had stinkers - West Ham at home springs to mind.

However, even "worldies" like Zidane, Vierra, Keane, Toure don't control every minute of every game and sometimes end up on the losing side as there are many other factors involved. Similarly, goalkeepers like de Gea and Lloris, don't save everything and can make individual errors.

The fact is Dembele is well equipped with a strong skill set. I agree with you that he hasn't (yet) fulfilled his total potential. If you watch him carefully however you will see he takes balls where he is only 40-60 favourite, thus enabling us to retain more possession, he presses well from the front, giving us more turnovers, he is strong in both the tackle and retaining possession, he is an excellent dribbler and has the rare ability to take on and beat men and when he wants to use it, he has a ferocious shot. For me, even more importantly than all that, is the space he creates by drawing players to him for others, most notably Eriksen,to flourish. I don't think it is a coincidence that some of Eriksen's best perfrmances have come with Dembele in the side. We have even heard some players articulate what a pleasure Dembele is to play with.

Finally, given his current form, I would be very surprised if he wasn't one of the first on the team sheet against the Goons. I think his muscular presence in the big games is especially important to us. If Poch continues to play him, will you be prepared to change your mind about him? Or will you start to doubt Poch's judgement?

 

[inkpenspur]

What impresses me most about Dembele is that he is very quick to shield the ball with his body against the opponent, he tends to win the ball, then pivot his body through 90 degrees to put his body between the ball and the opponent... and he is then a very big bloke to shift and retains possession after the initial ball winning tackle.

 

[braineclipse]

Erm, it objectively wasn't smaller than Dier's as it led to a goal... usually mistakes are subjective, you've chosen the one time it isn't to say that

As for calling any of our midfielders to start laughable? Really? REALLY?!! So Dier who has been a rock all season and giving us much needed protection is laughable to say he should start? Or an argument for Alli who looks dangerous, got 2 goals (more than mason did the whole of last season (31 games) and looks a potentially world class player? More than Dembele who's also got 2 goals (in 2 games), has been exceptional the past two games?! You're saying it's equally as laughable to want these guys to start over Mason who has just come back from injury and even fully fit doesn't offer the same threat?

I know I ruined it by the last subjective remark but the stats speak too

I was talking about objectively as in ignoring the outcome, but looking at the mistake in isolation. Dier gave the ball away as the last man, Mason lost it with defenders behind him. Dier's mistake will lead to goals against more often than Mason's in my opinion. That, objectively, makes it a worse misake for me.

Mason also started in very good performances against Everton, Leicester and was decisive in the win against Sunderland. Mason, Dembele and Dier all started in the game against Stoke where we were very good. Mason startet tons of games last season when we finished 5th.

You point towards all the other good things Dier and Alli have done, fair enough. But for Mason you ignored all the good he had done and pointed to his one mistake as reason enough why him starting was laughable. That's not exactly fair...

Brain, I think you need to lift your myopic focus on a ten minute slot before and after the substitution. We had almost total control in the first half and Dembele was an integral part of that. Equally, he has been part of some of our most famous performances, most notably Chel53a at home in the 5-3. Certainly, we have also lost games he has played in and he has also had stinkers - West Ham at home springs to mind.

However, even "worldies" like Zidane, Vierra, Keane, Toure don't control every minute of every game and sometimes end up on the losing side as there are many other factors involved. Similarly, goalkeepers like de Gea and Lloris, don't save everything and can make individual errors.

The fact is Dembele is well equipped with a strong skill set. I agree with you that he hasn't (yet) fulfilled his total potential. If you watch him carefully however you will see he takes balls where he is only 40-60 favourite, thus enabling us to retain more possession, he presses well from the front, giving us more turnovers, he is strong in both the tackle and retaining possession, he is an excellent dribbler and has the rare ability to take on and beat men and when he wants to use it, he has a ferocious shot. For me, even more importantly than all that, is the space he creates by drawing players to him for others, most notably Eriksen,to flourish. I don't think it is a coincidence that some of Eriksen's best perfrmances have come with Dembele in the side. We have even heard some players articulate what a pleasure Dembele is to play with.

Finally, given his current form, I would be very surprised if he wasn't one of the first on the team sheet against the Goons. I think his muscular presence in the big games is especially important to us. If Poch continues to play him, will you be prepared to change your mind about him? Or will you start to doubt Poch's judgement?

The 10 minutes before the sub is the most comparable period of play to the 10 minutes after the sub. If you don't understand how and why a game chances character when the losing team starts throwing caution to the wind and press higher up I don't know where to even start...

Do you not agree that the change in game flow that we saw against Villa is pretty typical for when one team is winning and the losing team changes it up towards the end out of desperation?

I agree. Dembele is in form and should start against Arsenal. It's his kind of game and we need him. If he deserves to keep his place when Son is fully fit, with Alli and Dier also in excellent form is a different question.

I have no idea what on earth you're talking about with "changing my mind about him"... We're talking about his contribution in terms of keeping control of a game when leading against a "smaller team". That's rather specific if you haven't noticed. I can rate his ability in that specific situation differently from you, and rate Mason's ability higher than you in that situation, and still rate Dembele overall as a player. I disagree with you on this specific thing and all of a sudden you're talking about me changing my mind on the player or Pochettino if he keeps getting selected? I think you're taking things way out of context.

 

[metalgear]

b

If there was a (strong) causal relationship between Dembele going off and us losing control in the game how does that work? Just saying "steeliness" really doesn't explain anything. I've explicitly asked for examples of what he does and how it works.

Could you also explain why we have seen us lose control of games with Dembele in them? What is it about what he does that keeps us in control that's failed in those games?

Remember we also had Dier in the team. I don't think we could be accused of having too many fast passers or being one dimensional. If anything Mason made us more balanced.


Again. We have that in Dier too.

Dembele is also quite different to many of those in that he wasn't playing as a deep/defensive midfielder for us against Villa. Also you're talking almost exclusively about world class players with a multitude of strengths. Dembele had the potential to become world class, so far he's not lived up to his potential.



Could I equally claim that people are minimizing Mason's performance by stating that we lost control as a result of him coming on? I see Dembele differently to you and Pirate it would seem, or rather his impact on various game situations differently. But it's a question of strengths and weaknesses.

How does "slowing the ball down" make Villa press more and become more tired? Isn't it harder to maintain a high press when the ball is moved around quickly? And again, did Dembele actually do what you claim is important in the 10 minutes leading up to the sub? Again claims are being made about what Dembele does, but without any examples being given with him actually doing that in the period leading up to the sub (surely the most comparable game situation to the period directly after the sub).

Lamela held on to the ball in the corners in the final minutes. You really want us to start doing that around the time Mason came on when a goal ahead at home? Seems like a really bad idea to me.

----------------------------------------------

For a quick comparison, as asking people to watch the 20 minutes of football surrounding the sub in question might be asking too much, some passing maps from squawka. To be perfectly clear and forthright the slider works in 5 minute intervals so it's probably closer to 8-9 minutes for Dembele and 11-12 minutes for Mason. But I don't think that makes much of a difference. Again, to be perfectly clear, I'm not just trying to prove my point with stats or claiming that stats have all the answers. I'm using this as a discussion about what actually happened in the game for everyone to see with their own eyes really isn't happening.

Other than that Dembele was fouled once, fouled an opponent once and lost the ball once. And again I will point out that his one dribble and winning a foul was a good piece of play, him showing some of his strengths. But minutes later he tried again and lost the ball.

So I ask again. What was it Dembele actually did that made him so important to us keeping control in the game?

what dembele does with his strength and dribbling is to commit more than one player to focus on him, and destroy the shape of the opposition.

 

[GrimsbyYid]

I was talking about objectively as in ignoring the outcome, but looking at the mistake in isolation. Dier gave the ball away as the last man, Mason lost it with defenders behind him. Dier's mistake will lead to goals against more often than Mason's in my opinion. That, objectively, makes it a worse misake for me.

Mason also started in very good performances against Everton, Leicester and was decisive in the win against Sunderland. Mason, Dembele and Dier all started in the game against Stoke where we were very good. Mason startet tons of games last season when we finished 5th.

You point towards all the other good things Dier and Alli have done, fair enough. But for Mason you ignored all the good he had done and pointed to his one mistake as reason enough why him starting was laughable. That's not exactly fair...

In my defence I did just say it was laughable to start him against Villa which people were calling for, then people defended his mistake with he's just coming back from injury etc. True, but that's why he should never have started.

I did actually think Mason was great the game he got injured, and I'd be interested to see if he could play to that standard more consistently. But I don't see any reason whatsoever to play him ahead o Dier and Dembele, and the only reason I can think to start ahead of Alli would be his age.

 

[milo]

b


what dembele does with his strength and dribbling is to commit more than one player to focus on him, and destroy the shape of the opposition.

How many chances were created from him doing that on Monday night?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

How many chances were created from him doing that on Monday night?

You me a beside stage first goal

 

[milo]

You me a beside stage first goal

I think that the argument @metalgear was making is that Dembele's running and strength on the ball pulled players in and this creates space for others. I would not include his goal on Monday (as good as it was) in this type of chance but I would be interested in what opportunities have been created by Dembele doing this, I cannot think of any off of the top of my head.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

And for what's it worth my take on the Demebele mason debate is thus:

dembele offer us an out ball which only Kane offers and Kane isn't as effective at it. Villa were always going to come into the game with or without Dembele as its natural and it was their last roll of the dice. They also got incredibly lucky with their goal which were happy to ignore when criticising players. Where Dembele would have been invaluable would have been after they scored as that shield to change the tempo and keep the ball in their half. I've said it a hell of a lot but he is our only player and possibly one of a few who can do that to a high level in this league.

Mason did everything well apart from the goal but I still say the man who should have dealt with it was Dier. Twic he had chances to take charge and clear the lines and both times he stepped back which isn't his style to me. Mason was guilty but Dier should have just taken the problem away

Mason passed the ball well and cleanly and Put in a shift with the small amount of time he was on

Credit should also go to Davies who came on as an unplanned sub and dealt with his oppos well even when they started doubling up in his side

It was a tepid performance due to nature of the team we were playing. It was almost a pre season game and them scoring actually shocked us into life for me

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think that the argument @metalgear was making is that Dembele's running and strength on the ball pulled players in and this creates space for others. I would not include his goal on Monday (as good as it was) in this type of chance but I would be interested in what opportunities have been created by Dembele doing this, I cannot think of any off of the top of my head.

Very few as he is rarely the creator. What he is though is the instigator a lot in the old Modric mould although a completely different style

West brom away last year was the nearest to a direct contribution IMO

 

[milo]

Very few as he is rarely the creator. What he is though is the instigator a lot in the old Modric mould although a completely different style

West brom away last year was the nearest to a direct contribution IMO

It does not have to be one where he is a direct contributor or gets an assist. I'd be interested in any goalscoring opportunities from a passage of play where Dembele has drawn in opposing players and created space for others.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

It does not have to be one where he is a direct contributor or gets an assist. I'd be interested in any goalscoring opportunities from a passage of play where Dembele has drawn in opposing players and created space for others.

West brom last season in our best away performance

He took a man out, creating space and laid the ball on for Kane

 

[milo]

West brom last season in our best away performance

He took a man out, creating space and laid the ball on for Kane

Kane still had two men on him when Dembele laid it off, so it still doesn't quite fit the bill

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Kane still had two men on him when Dembele laid it off, so it still doesn't quite fit the bill

Did he!!! Not how I remember it

 

[milo]

Did he!!! Not how I remember it

One behind, one goalside. Not the best highlight but all I could find

 

[Bedfordspurs]

One behind, one goalside. Not the best highlight but all I could find

One goal side and great swerve form Kane but 3 onndemeble and he releases the ball for the assist

Surely him having 3 on him is him taking players away to create space/opportunities

 

[Pirate55]

I was talking about objectively as in ignoring the outcome, but looking at the mistake in isolation. Dier gave the ball away as the last man, Mason lost it with defenders behind him. Dier's mistake will lead to goals against more often than Mason's in my opinion. That, objectively, makes it a worse misake for me.

Mason also started in very good performances against Everton, Leicester and was decisive in the win against Sunderland. Mason, Dembele and Dier all started in the game against Stoke where we were very good. Mason startet tons of games last season when we finished 5th.

You point towards all the other good things Dier and Alli have done, fair enough. But for Mason you ignored all the good he had done and pointed to his one mistake as reason enough why him starting was laughable. That's not exactly fair...



The 10 minutes before the sub is the most comparable period of play to the 10 minutes after the sub. If you don't understand how and why a game chances character when the losing team starts throwing caution to the wind and press higher up I don't know where to even start...

Do you not agree that the change in game flow that we saw against Villa is pretty typical for when one team is winning and the losing team changes it up towards the end out of desperation?

I agree. Dembele is in form and should start against Ar5ena1. It's his kind of game and we need him. If he deserves to keep his place when Son is fully fit, with Alli and Dier also in excellent form is a different question.

I have no idea what on earth you're talking about with "changing my mind about him"... We're talking about his contribution in terms of keeping control of a game when leading against a "smaller team". That's rather specific if you haven't noticed. I can rate his ability in that specific situation differently from you, and rate Mason's ability higher than you in that situation, and still rate Dembele overall as a player. I disagree with you on this specific thing and all of a sudden you're talking about me changing my mind on the player or Pochettino if he keeps getting selected? I think you're taking things way out of context.

Maybe, and if so, I apologise. I just feel that some underestimate Dembele's contribution. If you look at what I actually said above, I feel Dembele is likely to contribute more against the better teams. Mason, Son, Alli, Bentaleb, Eriksen, Chadli, Nige and Lamela all provide different options in the three or four behind Kane. It's great to have the ability to choose horses for courses. Now we just need another player to substitute for Kane. Dembele of Fulham perhaps.........