Paris

[braineclipse]

This worlds just going further and further nuts.

People talk about dark age politics but until people are responsible enough to be trusted with the world then unfortunately I think we need to go back to the dark ages with some factions. I'm no hippy nor am I right wing but the irony of all this fighting over the world is that there won't be a bloody world to fight over if this carries on.

If people wanna right in a brutal way then in my mind they can all be round up and put in the same place so they can do it to each other, not innocent people.

Its amazing where the world has gone in such a short space of time really, imagine 40 years ago if a black person took exception to Rising Damp Satire and killed Leonard Rossiter for the sake of it? The worlds just gone totally bonkers where you just have to live in fear on all fronts and that's no life.

You talk about the world and you talk about 40 years ago. Have you heard of a thing called the cold war? Apparently it wasn't the best thing ever. 40 years ago the US were just about getting done pulling their troops out of Vietnam...

The world is improving. It's slow, it's not constant progress, but it's improving. Don't let terrorists or the media convince you otherwise.

 

[Bonsaiboy]

You talk about the world and you talk about 40 years ago. Have you heard of a thing called the cold war? Apparently it wasn't the best thing ever. 40 years ago the US were just about getting done pulling their troops out of Vietnam...

The world is improving. It's slow, it's not constant progress, but it's improving. Don't let terrorists or the media convince you otherwise.

Well, that's not really true at all. The world, as in the Earth, is getting sicker and sicker, and over population will see a dramatic increase in social problems in the future.

The world, as in life for a particular individual with a lot of money who can live where he/she chooses, is generally getting better though it's true.

 

[elltrev]

Well, that's not really true at all. The world, as in the Earth, is getting sicker and sicker, and over population will see a dramatic increase in social problems in the future.

The world, as in life for a particular individual with a lot of money who can live where he/she chooses, is generally getting better though it's true.

There is much less armed violence in this era/generation than in previous ones.

 

[braineclipse]

There is much less armed violence in this era/generation than in previous ones.

That was in deed was I was talking about in the context of this thread.

Well, that's not really true at all. The world, as in the Earth, is getting sicker and sicker, and over population will see a dramatic increase in social problems in the future.

The world, as in life for a particular individual with a lot of money who can live where he/she chooses, is generally getting better though it's true.

Could you please tell me when it was that the world was better for those individuals without a lot of money (however much that is) and without the ability to move? Should be plenty of times throughout history if what I'm saying is not true at all.

 

[We are Tottenham]

That was in deed was I was talking about in the context of this thread.



Could you please tell me when it was that the world was better for those individuals without a lot of money (however much that is) and without the ability to move? Should be plenty of times throughout history if what I'm saying is not true at all.

maybe there are less full scale ie World wars now...I'm not so sure how much the world is safer now than between the World wars..

It does appear that the world is becoming a more dangerous place than it has been as far as travel and visiting other countries is concerned.

 

[Bonsaiboy]

Could you please tell me when it was that the world was better for those individuals without a lot of money (however much that is) and without the ability to move? Should be plenty of times throughout history if what I'm saying is not true at all.

I just don't think it is necessarily the case that the "world will always get better" by any objective definition because "better" is an entirely subjective notion. Mosul and Raqqa are "better" than they were, say, a few years previously by some people's definition, but others would disagree. And some Russians would say life was "better" in Soviet times, while many wouldn't. Scientific and medical advances can make improvements to individual's life, but how to successfully organize a society of human beings to live in a cohesive unit has been an ongoing problem since the dawn of civilization and it won't stop being one any time soon.

We tend to think we're immune from extreme social breakdown here, but it's a glass and steal illusion that could all tumble down one day - an economic collapse and everything could disintegrate around you and we'd be back in another dark ages.

 

[braineclipse]

maybe there are less full scale ie World wars now...I'm not so sure how much the world is safer now than between the World wars..

It does appear that the world is becoming a more dangerous place than it has been as far as travel and visiting other countries is concerned.

Great depression. Lenin Soviet Union completed and turning into the Stalin led Soviet Union. Obviously Hitler, Mussolini, Franco won Spanish civil war. Japan invading Manchuria. Heard there were some "troubles in the colonies" once or twice too.

About traveling... Again, compared to when? And have you taken into consideration where and how often people travel these days?

 

[braineclipse]

I just don't think it is necessarily the case that the "world will always get better" by any objective definition because "better" is an entirely subjective notion. Mosul and Raqqa are "better" than they were, say, a few years previously by some people's definition, but others would disagree. And some Russians would say life was "better" in Soviet times, while many wouldn't. Scientific and medical advances can make improvements to individual's life, but how to successfully organize a society of human beings to live in a cohesive unit has been an ongoing problem since the dawn of civilization and it won't stop being one any time soon.

We tend to think we're immune from extreme social breakdown here, but it's a glass and steal illusion that could all tumble down one day - an economic collapse and everything could disintegrate around you and we'd be back in another dark ages.

Did I say that the "world will always get better"? Nope... I said "the world is improving", in a direct response to claims to the contrary.

You make what would be solid points in a different discussion that have little relevance to what I was saying and that doesn't answer my direct (and rather obvious) question to your statement.

If we do not wish to end up back in the dark ages protecting (and spreading) freedom of speech should be seen as massively important. (to bring it somewhat back on topic).

 

[scaramanga]

As the person ultimately responsible for what ends up on this site, I'd like to make it clear that if anyone wants to ridicule any religion or draw some cartoons and post them here, go ahead.

If anyone believes their GHod is more important than our freedom then **** you and your GHod.

 

[braineclipse]

As the person ultimately responsible for what ends up on this site, I'd like to make it clear that if anyone wants to ridicule any religion or draw some cartoons and post them here, go ahead.

If anyone believes their GHod is more important than our freedom then **** you and your GHod.

=D>

 

[Roy1983]

As the person ultimately responsible for what ends up on this site, I'd like to make it clear that if anyone wants to ridicule any religion or draw some cartoons and post them here, go ahead.

:ross:

But seriously come on I've learnt no matter what you feel about religion don't post it on here!!

 

[WestBerkshire]

RIP those murdered. Thoughts and prayers go out to the people of Paris.

 

[milo]

Great depression. Lenin Soviet Union completed and turning into the Stalin led Soviet Union. Obviously Hitler, Mussolini, Franco won Spanish civil war. Japan invading Manchuria. Heard there were some "troubles in the colonies" once or twice too.

About traveling... Again, compared to when? And have you taken into consideration where and how often people travel these days?

We are getting less violent as species

http://www.newscientist.com/article...-are-less-violent-than-ever.html#.VK2T6VV1-uY

With regards why people think that the opposite is true, I think that this is because for a large chunk of the media, fear sells and particularly fear of the 'other'.

 

[Bonsaiboy]

Did I say that the "world will always get better"? Nope... I said "the world is improving", in a direct response to claims to the contrary.

You make what would be solid points in a different discussion that have little relevance to what I was saying and that doesn't answer my direct (and rather obvious) question to your statement.

If we do not wish to end up back in the dark ages protecting (and spreading) freedom of speech should be seen as massively important. (to bring it somewhat back on topic).

"Improve" is just as objective, unless in reference to something such as a haemorrhoid, such as mine is not improving no matter how many suppositories I stuff up there.

And who exactly is responsible for defining what freedom of speech is? You're free to say anything you want unless it upsets someone?

Do you know I was gonna post a couple of examples of things that skirt the line of currently acceptable things to say or not (Hotels and footballers, and holidaying couples in Portugal) but I self censored myself for fear of getting harassed by those with a differing view.

 

[LutonSpurs]

Statistically we are living in a period of relative peace and alot less bloodshed than decades of the past. Just because of the overload of information in this media age we are convinced it is worse. It really isn't.

And a very sad day. I get offended at stuff. If someone posts something I don't like I discuss it with them calmly if the circumstance is conducive to this or I live and let live. That's part of the freedom which leads to the generally safe and secure society I live in.

 

[milo]

"Improve" is just as objective, unless in reference to something such as a haemorrhoid, such as mine is not improving no matter how many suppositories I stuff up there.

And who exactly is responsible for defining what freedom of speech is? You're free to say anything you want unless it upsets someone?

Do you know I was gonna post a couple of examples of things that skirt the line of currently acceptable things to say or not (Hotels and footballers, and holidaying couples in Portugal) but I self censored myself for fear of getting harassed by those with a differing view.

I think that it is a mistake today to concentrate on the content rather than the principle of free speech

 

[Notmegov]

 

[braineclipse]

We are getting less violent as species

http://www.newscientist.com/article...-are-less-violent-than-ever.html#.VK2T6VV1-uY

With regards why people think that the opposite is true, I think that this is because for a large chunk of the media, fear sells and particularly fear of the 'other'.

Agreed. Along with, as Luton points out, overload of information.

"Improve" is just as objective, unless in reference to something such as a haemorrhoid, such as mine is not improving no matter how many suppositories I stuff up there.

And who exactly is responsible for defining what freedom of speech is? You're free to say anything you want unless it upsets someone?

Do you know I was gonna post a couple of examples of things that skirt the line of currently acceptable things to say or not (Hotels and footballers, and holidaying couples in Portugal) but I self censored myself for fear of getting harassed by those with a differing view.

Are you being purposefully difficult whilst you search for a period of time when humans had it better?

My problem was not with "improve" instead of "better". I claimed that the world is improving. You twisted that "to world will always get better", as you argued about potential futures where that would not be the case. I made no claims that it would continue indefinitely into the future. You argued against a straw man. Can you spot the difference? If not I don't know how to make it any clearer.

You had no problems initially talking about better or worse. What changed? Again. Please look at my comments in context. People claimed that the world is getting worse (essentially), I disagreed with that claiming that the world is getting better. You first go off on some path about potential futures where that might not be the case (seemingly accepting that things can in fact get better, or worse). Then you go away on some relativistic path claiming that "better is an entirely subjective notion", having already argued for ways things could get worse. I have no idea where you're heading next, but if it continues down this kind of relativistic path let me just say that I completely disagree and that I see no reason why you would even join in a discussion like this if you don't think it matters as better and worse are just subjective notions. If you're actually getting back on topic feel free to actually back up your previous statement with some examples of times when we were better off.

That is obviously not a useful definition of free speech. But I have no idea if you thought I would think that, if you think that yourself, or if it was just some hypothetical thought you threw out there.

You're afraid of getting harassed? I'm assuming you mean that you're afraid of people voicing their disagreement on an internet discussion board?

If you want this discussion to continue I think it would be rather useful if you would state what you think free speech is as a starting point instead of making vague references to whatever it is you're referring to.

I'll put in a quote that at least should clarify slightly how I feel about the issue:

“What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist.”
― Salman Rushdie

 

[Bonsaiboy]

We are getting less violent as species

http://www.newscientist.com/article...-are-less-violent-than-ever.html#.VK2T6VV1-uY

With regards why people think that the opposite is true, I think that this is because for a large chunk of the media, fear sells and particularly fear of the 'other'.

As the article says, the structures of society such as the state make violence less widely available and a society that doesn't reward violence will produce a genetic advantage to those less violent and the species who inhabit that society will theoretically evolve to become less violent. But the state of any given place can, and has, collapse at any time, leading to an increase in violence.

And also, equally, there are societies and cultures that do reward violence and, by the same token, these societies will get ever more violent, and those with the best capacity to be violent will be rewarded and evolution will dictate that those who inhabit that society will get ever more violent.

To quote Haruki Murakami from the Wind Up Bird Chronicle: “Somewhere, far, far away, there’s a shi11y island. An island without a name. An island not worth giving a name. A shi11y island with a shi11y shape. On this shi11y island grow palm trees that also have shi11y shapes. And the palm trees produce coconuts that give off a shi11y smell. Shi11y monkeys live in the trees, and they love to eat these shi11y-smelling coconuts, after which they shi1 the world’s foulest shi1. The shi1 falls on the ground and builds up shi11y mounds, making the shi11y palm trees that grow on them even shi11ier. It’s an endless cycle.”

 

[milo]

As the article says, the structures of society such as the state make violence less widely available and a society that doesn't reward violence will produce a genetic advantage to those less violent and the species who inhabit that society will theoretically evolve to become less violent. But the state of any given place can, and has, collapse at any time, leading to an increase in violence.

And also, equally, there are societies and cultures that do reward violence and, by the same token, these societies will get ever more violent, and those with the best capacity to be violent and be rewarded and evolution will dictate that those who inhabit that society will get ever more violent.

To quote Haruki Murakami from the Wind Up Bird Chronicle: “Somewhere, far, far away, there’s a shi11y island. An island without a name. An island not worth giving a name. A shi11y island with a shi11y shape. On this shi11y island grow palm trees that also have shi11y shapes. And the palm trees produce coconuts that give off a shi11y smell. Shi11y monkeys live in the trees, and they love to eat these shi11y-smelling coconuts, after which they shi1 the world’s foulest shi1. The shi1 falls on the ground and builds up shi11y mounds, making the shi11y palm trees that grow on them even shi11ier. It’s an endless cycle.”

So you agree that this is the safest time there has ever been to be alive. Good.