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AVB & Spurs Tactics and Formations discussion thread
- Thread starter BAE
- Start date
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
actually no. Routlegde and Lennon are distinctly different in their approach even though the are both right wingers
the reason i am certain of this was cause i made a pretty stupid conclusion early on that routledge would have a better career , which was hugely wrong, than lennon....mainly cause routledge utilised the ball better than lennon (or so i thought) whereas lennon was more a direct route impact player........
whats going on there in swansea suits routlegde VERY much (though he looks like he will be getting dropped).
dyer and bale? again i think those two arent quite as similar as you might think but i do agree that bale should be able to pull it off
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
LOL
something that he did in porto? and tried to do in chelsea..wouldnt like o say as i am not an expert
Millsy_Yiddo
Naybet
But even when it does click, is it the best way for us to play to give us the best chance of winning 3 points on a Saturday? I'm not so sure.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Routledge does use the ball well but I think Lennon is under-rated in this regard. Jol thought he could play centrally and I think one of the reasons Lennon has had such a successful career and isn't simply any old speed merchant playing in League 1 is because he uses the ball welll too. I think he can definitely do a job in the system AVB is trying to implement because he is intelligent, it just needs to click.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Re: Still Optimistic Thread
I think that's an excellent observation and actually gives cause for optimism. Now we've had a truly bad game trying to play that way it will be easy to see where the faults were. I remember the Walker one well, everyone around me was screaming for him to see Gylfi but he just wouldn't do it...GHod knows why.
It was like they still wanted to slip Bale or Lennon in or find space for Defoe, before they actually should have done it. It may be a lot to take in for the players, but I'm hoping it will click soon.
One the one hand I think that surely they should all know, especially after a full pre-season, what they should be doing, how they should be running these plays etc. But maybe it is just a different kettle of fish in a competitive game and it's harder for it to click for these players.
I think that's an excellent observation and actually gives cause for optimism. Now we've had a truly bad game trying to play that way it will be easy to see where the faults were. I remember the Walker one well, everyone around me was screaming for him to see Gylfi but he just wouldn't do it...GHod knows why.
It was like they still wanted to slip Bale or Lennon in or find space for Defoe, before they actually should have done it. It may be a lot to take in for the players, but I'm hoping it will click soon.
One the one hand I think that surely they should all know, especially after a full pre-season, what they should be doing, how they should be running these plays etc. But maybe it is just a different kettle of fish in a competitive game and it's harder for it to click for these players.
I
indianspur
Guest
what was that then?
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Re: Still Optimistic Thread
Thanks for that, very interesting.
Nice to see in the second example so many people in the box and the space Sigurdsson had to manouvre in, if only he got the pass!
Thanks for that, very interesting.
Nice to see in the second example so many people in the box and the space Sigurdsson had to manouvre in, if only he got the pass!
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
won the league, they went undefeated, drew only 2 games.
funnily enough looking back on that porto team in that brick portugese league. you have to wonder how much help he had
ringo
Tim Sherwood
Re: Still Optimistic Thread
I saw this on Saturday. A couple of times Siggy was backed up against their back four, wanted the ball into feet, and they wouldn't play it into him. Usually when I see this, it is in Saturday parks football, with someone that the team doesn't trust to keep the ball. I don't believe for one minute that this was the reason in this case, but if he wants it into feet they should knock it into him, even if he has man up his backside. After all he was the person playing in the space bewtween the defence and midfield. If he demands the ball, you have to trust him with it.
I saw this on Saturday. A couple of times Siggy was backed up against their back four, wanted the ball into feet, and they wouldn't play it into him. Usually when I see this, it is in Saturday parks football, with someone that the team doesn't trust to keep the ball. I don't believe for one minute that this was the reason in this case, but if he wants it into feet they should knock it into him, even if he has man up his backside. After all he was the person playing in the space bewtween the defence and midfield. If he demands the ball, you have to trust him with it.
I
indianspur
Guest
i know that, but our reply was to a question about AVB's system, like you had an idea based on his days at Porto and Chelsea
i cant fathom out any system tbh
I
indianspur
Guest
id say Martinez deserves the Man U job then based on that then
braineclipse
Willie Hall
There were some decent articles floating around when we first signed him that went into a bit of detail on this.
Don't have the time to look for them now, but maybe someone else remember where they are or you can try looking yourself, shouldn't be that hard to find.
Can try to pop back at some point later and post them if I find them.
Villas-Boas worked at Porto before he left in search of a manager job. McClaren maybe?
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Re: Hugo Lloris
The players are learning a new way of playing, they havent perfected it yet without a full compliment of players and in 3 games.
Personally Im not worried, not least because I am not surprised in the slightest.
I think people should expect this to take time, and to not even think of fretting over 3 games while the window is open.
If in a month we show no improvement then I will be getting concerned, right now? Not at all.
The players are learning a new way of playing, they havent perfected it yet without a full compliment of players and in 3 games.
Personally Im not worried, not least because I am not surprised in the slightest.
I think people should expect this to take time, and to not even think of fretting over 3 games while the window is open.
If in a month we show no improvement then I will be getting concerned, right now? Not at all.
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
Re: Hugo Lloris
he way i see it, the league is getting a smaller and smaller deviation from the average team..every point counts.....i am worried that we cant seem to pick up points from the lesser teams which would raise the need to beat the harder teams which is yet to be seen if we are capable of doing
and you know what, its common to have a transition period but with the level of players we have the transition shouldnt be as bad as that norwhich game
that performance isnt expected in most kind of circumstances that doesnt involve injuries or an act of GHod IMO
i'm just trying to think of a situation where a good manager took over a good team and the expectation, the actuall expectation and belief would be a big regression from how they were literally a few months prior to how they would be under new management
i cant think of nay situation where it was expected and / or accepted ..especially as the norm.
he way i see it, the league is getting a smaller and smaller deviation from the average team..every point counts.....i am worried that we cant seem to pick up points from the lesser teams which would raise the need to beat the harder teams which is yet to be seen if we are capable of doing
and you know what, its common to have a transition period but with the level of players we have the transition shouldnt be as bad as that norwhich game
that performance isnt expected in most kind of circumstances that doesnt involve injuries or an act of GHod IMO
i'm just trying to think of a situation where a good manager took over a good team and the expectation, the actuall expectation and belief would be a big regression from how they were literally a few months prior to how they would be under new management
i cant think of nay situation where it was expected and / or accepted ..especially as the norm.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Re: Hugo Lloris
I wonder how many managers have taken on teams, tried to change things and got sacked before they could finish the process and reap the benefits because chairmen and fans lost their nerve.
Theres no actual answer of course, but I bet there are numerous posibilities out there.
I dont care how good a player is supposed to be, change takes time. They work so much on instinct that to make them stop, think and act on new instructions is going to mean varied levels of performance and some time before the new expectations become instinct.
Some adapt quicker than others. Sometimes it doesnt take time at all because the new ideas are relatively close to the old ones. Sometimes its a pretty rough ride while it all works out.
I dont see 3 games as long enough to indicate how successful, or not, this process will be. And I think its pretty foolish of some to be so fretful right now.
I wonder how many managers have taken on teams, tried to change things and got sacked before they could finish the process and reap the benefits because chairmen and fans lost their nerve.
Theres no actual answer of course, but I bet there are numerous posibilities out there.
I dont care how good a player is supposed to be, change takes time. They work so much on instinct that to make them stop, think and act on new instructions is going to mean varied levels of performance and some time before the new expectations become instinct.
Some adapt quicker than others. Sometimes it doesnt take time at all because the new ideas are relatively close to the old ones. Sometimes its a pretty rough ride while it all works out.
I dont see 3 games as long enough to indicate how successful, or not, this process will be. And I think its pretty foolish of some to be so fretful right now.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Re: Hugo Lloris
Agreed, the transition shouldn't have been that bad. It was really depressing to watch, it was like there had been absolutely no tactical work on what to do with the ball ever since the new manager came in, and yet the players were acting like they had been told to do something which they were unable to do. It was so, so weird.
Maybe there aren't many examples of good new managers having an accepted transition period because the type of manager is changing. We have guys like AVB and Rodgers managing big teams in England, guys that hadn't played the game at a high level but have gotten some success in their careers by learning a lot about the game, and drilling the team to a set system that can lead to excellent results if they get the right players to play within it. So in Rodgers case, even though I find the guy greatly annoying, I think he clearly has some good knowledge about the game, and can be a good manager, but at Liverpool there will be a transition period because a lot of their good players don't suit his very specific way of playing, so they would need to accept a transition will happen. Same with us, simply because the players must get used to the fact they have more tactical instructions than before, so there may be a transition period.
A lot of other managers that join English teams don't have radically different ways of doing things or thinking about the game, even though they may be more attacking or more defensive for example. They will probably give more individual freedom than these new 'system' managers and therefore the level of the comfort for the players in what they need to do is always pretty high.
But I agree though, even if there is a transition period, no performance should be as bad as that Norwich game. So many things were wrong with it, the players were making so many basic, obvious errors that anyone could see. I can't even put my finger on why it would be that bad. I read that AVB, despite being more tactical than Harry, wasn't overly tactical and was able to reduce his tactics to a half an hour briefing before a game, which is what I believe Harry did anyway. But it then begs the question, if he isn't overly tactical, what the hell was the problem in that game? Why had the players all abandoned good, normal football sense?
Agreed, the transition shouldn't have been that bad. It was really depressing to watch, it was like there had been absolutely no tactical work on what to do with the ball ever since the new manager came in, and yet the players were acting like they had been told to do something which they were unable to do. It was so, so weird.
Maybe there aren't many examples of good new managers having an accepted transition period because the type of manager is changing. We have guys like AVB and Rodgers managing big teams in England, guys that hadn't played the game at a high level but have gotten some success in their careers by learning a lot about the game, and drilling the team to a set system that can lead to excellent results if they get the right players to play within it. So in Rodgers case, even though I find the guy greatly annoying, I think he clearly has some good knowledge about the game, and can be a good manager, but at Liverpool there will be a transition period because a lot of their good players don't suit his very specific way of playing, so they would need to accept a transition will happen. Same with us, simply because the players must get used to the fact they have more tactical instructions than before, so there may be a transition period.
A lot of other managers that join English teams don't have radically different ways of doing things or thinking about the game, even though they may be more attacking or more defensive for example. They will probably give more individual freedom than these new 'system' managers and therefore the level of the comfort for the players in what they need to do is always pretty high.
But I agree though, even if there is a transition period, no performance should be as bad as that Norwich game. So many things were wrong with it, the players were making so many basic, obvious errors that anyone could see. I can't even put my finger on why it would be that bad. I read that AVB, despite being more tactical than Harry, wasn't overly tactical and was able to reduce his tactics to a half an hour briefing before a game, which is what I believe Harry did anyway. But it then begs the question, if he isn't overly tactical, what the hell was the problem in that game? Why had the players all abandoned good, normal football sense?
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charlietheyid
Banned
Re: Hugo Lloris
Well, i give up then :lol:
Lets play Friedel so he keeps his premierleague record, lets play Dawson because he is a nice lad, lets play livermore because he is from the club..
I dont know what to say really, all i know is we'll have results like that every Saturday. We need to move on and play the top players.
Well, i give up then :lol:
Lets play Friedel so he keeps his premierleague record, lets play Dawson because he is a nice lad, lets play livermore because he is from the club..
I dont know what to say really, all i know is we'll have results like that every Saturday. We need to move on and play the top players.