Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Baleforce]

The Queens speech outlines alot of what loads of lefty and remainers were shouting about not happening. The below being a couple of my favs.

• New visa to "ensure qualified doctors, nurses and health professionals have fast-track entry to the United Kingdom" So we are not closing our doors and making harder for needed talent like claimed on here?
• The government will continue to take steps to meet net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050

Oh well better luck in 5 years

slamming them on child refugees by the looks of it though,

https://twitter.com/x/status/1207687386068652033

 

[Hootnow]

I don't want that to happen. The country needs a functioning opposition in order for parliament to work properly.

I want them to elect a leader that isn't an ideological fool. I want them to elect a leader that has some policies that go a little further than "something, something, magic money tree". I want them to elect a leader that understands the world has moved on from the 1960s.

Without that the government will just end up as bad as them.

I've seen this referenced quite often about how a decent opposition helps out parliament work properly. Would someone kindly talk me through how this works in practice? My simple head just doesn't quite get it.

What I tend to see, whether its Labour or Conservative, is essentially dictatorial rule of the majority for the length of the parliament. Where you can do interesting things like promoting Goldsmith to the House of Lords for instance mere days after he's lost in an election to make sure he stays in the cabinet.

Until it comes to election time, can someone give me some examples in the last few decades of 'the functioning opposition' actually impacting on the government's policy when it has a functioning majority?

 

[Hootnow]

The Queens speech outlines alot of what loads of lefty and remainers were shouting about not happening. The below being a couple of my favs.

• New visa to "ensure qualified doctors, nurses and health professionals have fast-track entry to the United Kingdom" So we are not closing our doors and making harder for needed talent like claimed on here?
• The government will continue to take steps to meet net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050

Oh well better luck in 5 years

https://twitter.com/x/status/1207705418635628546

Indeed, not like Boris to lie or immediately change things around. Not like him at all....

Do we have a head in the sand emoji? Or perhaps a Turkeys voting for Christmas one? Would be very seasonal too.

Oh and about the 'new visa'. Not much point in the new visa if you don't change the appalling atmosphere the Home Office has created for immigrants, including doctors

Spoiler: To point out a few cases

(https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/...in-uk-for-13-years-told-she-can-a4252736.html/ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-45764290/ https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...coming-back-to-uk-over-visa-mix-up/ar-AAIRpQv/ http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/gp...or-visiting-family-too-often/20037759.article)

.

They may also want to do something about the atmosphere they and the British population have created after Brexit, which has made many EU members of staff want to leave the NHS. Or the non EU members of staff who increasingly don't feel welcome.

Or indeed many of my colleagues who are also looking to leave to greener pastures.

Or the conditions that have left these huge gaps in the first place.

They may well do this (I'm not holding my breath) but its frankly pointless slightly increasing the flow of the tap if the plughole is wide open.

 

[scaramanga]

I've seen this referenced quite often about how a decent opposition helps out parliament work properly. Would someone kindly talk me through how this works in practice? My simple head just doesn't quite get it.

What I tend to see, whether its Labour or Conservative, is essentially dictatorial rule of the majority for the length of the parliament. Where you can do interesting things like promoting Goldsmith to the House of Lords for instance mere days after he's lost in an election to make sure he stays in the cabinet.

Until it comes to election time, can someone give me some examples in the last few decades of 'the functioning opposition' actually impacting on the government's policy when it has a functioning majority?

What a functioning opposition does is stop the government straying too far from the middle ground. Since the mid 80s both parties have been fighting over the centre ground and the country is far better for it.

If Labour make themselves unelectable (and they have) then there's nothing to stop the Conservatives lurching to the right. They have far more leeway to work in as it would take something as extremely right that would equal Labour's extreme left stance before the public start to even consider the other party.

Election time might be the only time we get to exercise that choice, but that vast majority will base their decisions on what the two parties have been doing for the past few years.

 

[scaramanga]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1207705418635628546

Indeed, not like Boris to lie or immediately change things around. Not like him at all....

Do we have a head in the sand emoji? Or perhaps a Turkeys voting for Christmas one? Would be very seasonal too.

Oh and about the 'new visa'. Not much point in the new visa if you don't change the appalling atmosphere the Home Office has created for immigrants, including doctors

Spoiler: To point out a few cases

(https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/...in-uk-for-13-years-told-she-can-a4252736.html/ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-45764290/ https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...coming-back-to-uk-over-visa-mix-up/ar-AAIRpQv/ http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/gp...or-visiting-family-too-often/20037759.article)

.

They may also want to do something about the atmosphere they and the British population have created after Brexit, which has made many EU members of staff want to leave the NHS. Or the non EU members of staff who increasingly don't feel welcome.

Or indeed many of my colleagues who are also looking to leave to greener pastures.

Or the conditions that have left these huge gaps in the first place.

They may well do this (I'm not holding my breath) but its frankly pointless slightly increasing the flow of the tap if the plughole is wide open.

1, 3 and 6 are very welcome changes.

 

[Hootnow]

What a functioning opposition does is stop the government straying too far from the middle ground. Since the mid 80s both parties have been fighting over the centre ground and the country is far better for it.

If Labour make themselves unelectable (and they have) then there's nothing to stop the Conservatives lurching to the right. They have far more leeway to work in as it would take something as extremely right that would equal Labour's extreme left stance before the public start to even consider the other party.

Election time might be the only time we get to exercise that choice, but that vast majority will base their decisions on what the two parties have been doing for the past few years.

The conservatives have already lurched heavily to the right, pulled in that direction by UKIP and their ilk. Its now a party where the likes of Soames and Hammond no longer feel they have a place, where former Conservative PMs campaign against the current PM.

I also find it is said, completely unironically, by people who I imagine have never strayed from their normal voting patterns. I remember your displeasure at the Conservative party voting against legalising gay marriage and Cameron having to rely on the labour party to pass the bill, vowing never to vote Tory again.

Yet I have a rather strong suspicion that you did not vote for Blair, who is realistically as centre ground as labour are going to get without crossing the benches and just becoming Tories. I suspect most of the people on this board, which for whatever reason leans incredibly right wing, have barely graced the labour boxes in GEs in their lifetimes.

After 9 years of austerity from the current party and coming across voters who voted for 'change'...by voting for the incumbents, I'd say the majority base their decisions on wilful ignorance and important things like how graceful the leader looks while eating a bacon sandwich.

 

[Hootnow]

1, 3 and 6 are very welcome changes.

Indeed. Who needs workers to have rights, aiming to reduce our carbon footprint or to help look after child refugees or protect the rights of the EU citizens that have lived in and contributed so much to this country over the years?

More importantly, why change something so important so immediately after the election?

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Indeed. Who needs workers to have rights, aiming to reduce our carbon footprint or to help look after child refugees or protect the rights of the EU citizens that have lived in and contributed so much to this country over the years?

More importantly, why change something so important so immediately after the election?

Well it is often said we are a conservative country.

I really would have voted Corbyn, but i was very tired as i get sometimes. But i guess truth be told he did not move me enough or i would have made the effort to vote.

I really liked the idea of complete change.

 

[Hootnow]

Well it is often said we are a conservative country.

I really would have voted Corbyn, but i was very tired as i get sometimes. But i guess truth be told he did not move me enough or i would have made the effort to vote.

I really liked the idea of complete change.

This is undoubtedly a conservative country at heart. For good and for bad.



I actually forgot to ask above. For those who say the idea of a 'functioning opposition' is to keep the government from sliding too far in the opposite direction.

What would a Tory party that has slid too far to the right for you to vote for look like for you? In terms of social policy, economic policy, foreign policy etc?

 

[Parklaner81]

Yet I have a rather strong suspicion that you did not vote for Blair, who is realistically as centre ground as labour are going to get without crossing the benches and just becoming Tories. I suspect most of the people on this board, which for whatever reason leans incredibly right wing, have barely graced the labour boxes in GEs in their lifetimes.

After 9 years of austerity from the current party and coming across voters who voted for 'change'...by voting for the incumbents, I'd say the majority base their decisions on wilful ignorance and important things like how graceful the leader looks while eating a bacon sandwich.

The incumbents were the only ones who appeared to have any intention of enacting the 'change' that the majority voted for in 2016, so it really isn't as strange as you seem to be implying.

 

[scaramanga]

The conservatives have already lurched heavily to the right, pulled in that direction by UKIP and their ilk. Its now a party where the likes of Soames and Hammond no longer feel they have a place, where former Conservative PMs campaign against the current PM.

I also find it is said, completely unironically, by people who I imagine have never strayed from their normal voting patterns. I remember your displeasure at the Conservative party voting against legalising gay marriage and Cameron having to rely on the labour party to pass the bill, vowing never to vote Tory again.

Yet I have a rather strong suspicion that you did not vote for Blair, who is realistically as centre ground as labour are going to get without crossing the benches and just becoming Tories. I suspect most of the people on this board, which for whatever reason leans incredibly right wing, have barely graced the labour boxes in GEs in their lifetimes.

After 9 years of austerity from the current party and coming across voters who voted for 'change'...by voting for the incumbents, I'd say the majority base their decisions on wilful ignorance and important things like how graceful the leader looks while eating a bacon sandwich.

I voted for Blair, I voted for the Orange Book Lib Dems and I voted for Cameron. All are pretty much around my target vote area.

I don't remember vowing never to vote conservative, I do remember refusing to vote for May. But my memory being what it is I won't hold any stronger test to it than that statement.

It's precisely because Labour have made themselves so unelectable that the Conservatives have been able to move safely to the right without risk of losing votes. They could never have done that with Blair in charge of Labour - they'd have been destroyed at the last election.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I've seen this referenced quite often about how a decent opposition helps out parliament work properly. Would someone kindly talk me through how this works in practice? My simple head just doesn't quite get it.

What I tend to see, whether its Labour or Conservative, is essentially dictatorial rule of the majority for the length of the parliament. Where you can do interesting things like promoting Goldsmith to the House of Lords for instance mere days after he's lost in an election to make sure he stays in the cabinet.

Until it comes to election time, can someone give me some examples in the last few decades of 'the functioning opposition' actually impacting on the government's policy when it has a functioning majority?

Any chinks in policy, anything that can embarrass, anything that is a miss - it is the opposition's job to flag it up, and try and win as much political capital. The government will then move to correct the omission or oversight. In theory. It does work to an extent. This clever Tory government have stolen Labour's thunder, so Labour can't exactly start representing big business as the Tory's represent the north. It is a strange political landscape where the Conservatives no longer really represent the likes of Scara, and the southern right.

 

[Hootnow]

The incumbents were the only ones who appeared to have any intention of enacting the 'change' that the majority voted for in 2016, so it really isn't as strange as you seem to be implying.

I would respectfully disagree.

While I think Brexit is the most important foreign policy issue this country has faced since the second world war, there will be life, for better or for worse, after Brexit.

When I say people voted for change, I meant someone who is on benefits, complaining about how their benefits don't cover a dignified life...talking about how the Tories will bring in change. To the benefits regime they themselves enacted. Makes sense.

 

[scaramanga]

Indeed. Who needs workers to have rights, aiming to reduce our carbon footprint or to help look after child refugees or protect the rights of the EU citizens that have lived in and contributed so much to this country over the years?

More importantly, why change something so important so immediately after the election?

1 - workers will always have the right to refuse a job offer if they don't like the conditions.

3 - Consumers can choose what we do with our carbon footprint. Currently that's less than Labour wanted and more than nothing. Education and choice are the answers, not hair shirts.

6 - Any refugee that is already in an EU country is safe and therefore doesn't need safe harbour to the UK. We have a duty to protect those who come directly here if they are in danger from the place they're leaving. We don't have any duty to take people from France or Germany because they'd rather be in the UK.

 

[SpurMeUp]

The Queens speech outlines alot of what loads of lefty and remainers were shouting about not happening. The below being a couple of my favs.

• New visa to "ensure qualified doctors, nurses and health professionals have fast-track entry to the United Kingdom" So we are not closing our doors and making harder for needed talent like claimed on here?
• The government will continue to take steps to meet net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050

Oh well better luck in 5 years

Visas are more hassle than free movement obviously. More red tape and paperwork. At the moment a nurse in Portugal can apply for a job online and be at an interview the next day if necessary. A visa is a barrier. And as MrHoot says, people won't feel welcome plus the 15% drop in the pound has made the UK much much less attractive.

Will the government do the same for other industries? Like fruit picking? If so, where do you draw the line, and what was the point? All you've done is create bureaucracy and damage the UK economy, for what benefit?

 

[Hootnow]

I voted for Blair, I voted for the Orange Book Lib Dems and I voted for Cameron. All are pretty much around my target vote area.

I don't remember vowing never to vote conservative, I do remember refusing to vote for May. But my memory being what it is I won't hold any stronger test to it than that statement.

It's precisely because Labour have made themselves so unelectable that the Conservatives have been able to move safely to the right without risk of losing votes. They could never have done that with Blair in charge of Labour - they'd have been destroyed at the last election.

Fair enough, I was clearly mistaken on the first point. The not voting conservative was not supposed to be a gotcha moment, it was how I remembered it and there is a very reasonable chance I am misremembering that exchange, I would have course not pretend to know better than you your own thoughts.

Considering the changed political landscape in Scotland, the (narrow) victory for Brexit and Mr Blair's strong affinity for remain, I'm not so sure that this election would have been the cakewalk so many seem to think it would have been for him. Though I guess there is a strong chance that he would have campaigned much more strongly and efficiently for remain than Corbyn did and that may have been enough to change the result around.

Not to take anything away from Corbyn, who is an utter buffoon.

 

[SpurMeUp]

rabid nut

Oh dear. Would he call him that to his face?

 

[Baleforce]

This is undoubtedly a conservative country at heart. For good and for bad.



I actually forgot to ask above. For those who say the idea of a 'functioning opposition' is to keep the government from sliding too far in the opposite direction.

What would a Tory party that has slid too far to the right for you to vote for look like for you? In terms of social policy, economic policy, foreign policy etc?

This one

 

[SpurMeUp]

1 - workers will always have the right to refuse a job offer if they don't like the conditions.

Only if the economy is strong. Boris will bottle hard Brexit, so the worst-hit scenario should be avoided, but uncertainty will linger.

3 - Consumers can choose what we do with our carbon footprint. Currently that's less than Labour wanted and more than nothing. Education and choice are the answers, not hair shirts.

I think we need leadership on an intra-national level. The EU, China and the US have to lead the way. We'll be peripheral.

 

[Parklaner81]

I would respectfully disagree.

While I think Brexit is the most important foreign policy issue this country has faced since the second world war, there will be life, for better or for worse, after Brexit.

When I say people voted for change, I meant someone who is on benefits, complaining about how their benefits don't cover a dignified life...talking about how the Tories will bring in change. To the benefits regime they themselves enacted. Makes sense.

Fair enough. Though the scenario you refer to almost sounds like an individual case, or at least a pretty narrow subset of voter. Either way, it's not a scenario I've actually come across. I'd be pretty confident that my scenario would've been a far more significant driver of the vote at this election.