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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

scaramanga said:
I can tell you how I would negotiate the deal - experience has told me not to assume any ability of any politician. I think I made that clear to you at the start of all of this.
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What would you try and attain, that is different to the one template we have thus far - mays deal?
 
Parklaner81 said:
Not disputing it's a big ask, but if there was a deal to be done (hypothetically speaking - unlikely in my view because the EU aren't incentivised to achieve one, but leaving that aside), I think Johnson could wriggle his way to accepting a very short extension to get it over the line. I don't think it'll happen, but I don't think I'd view the 31st October deadline as an absolute impediment to it, within reason.
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Some EU geek on a podcast I was listening too walked back the steps required for a new deal, and concluded that ship had sailed weeks ago. They concluded the only deal possible with the time left would be May's deal as is (not going to happen) or May's deal with NI backstop (remote chance of this). Any real divergence from the current WA will take too much time. I guess where there is a will there is a way, but I don't think even a short extension will be enough for something new.
 
Rorschach said:
Some EU geek on a podcast I was listening too walked back the steps required for a new deal, and concluded that ship had sailed weeks ago. They concluded the on'l deal possible with the time left would be May's deal as is (not going to happen) or May's deal with NI backstop (remote chance of this). Any real divergence from the current WA will tak too much time. I guess where there is a will there is a way but I don't think even a short extension will be enough for something new.
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And all the while the SC and Opposition is playing into the EUs hands, why would they even consider facilitating proper negotiations?
 
scaramanga said:
The backstop means nothing to the EU other than the ability to lock us into membership in perpetuity by refusing to join in negotiations at the next stage. It's been presented as something for the UK but actually it's their way of tying our hands when the trade deals begin.

All accounts are those with a vested interest in seeing Johnson fail, remember.

I agree with your analysis of where we will end up. Neither parliament nor the SC want us to leave so we simply won't be allowed to leave - no matter what the wishes of the electorate.
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The NI backstop was an elegant enough solution to all the current impasses. The UK wide backstop, which is widely unpopular in the EU27, was a sop to May. A trap of her own making if you insist on viewing it as that.

All accounts did also include leaks from No10 , so I think on the face of it it is safe to say negotiations have not really progressed, as per Cumming's master plan.
 
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It's all well and good lamenting Brexit not happening. But what is it people want to happen? A no deal exit, may's deal, or a Labour/Norway option where we're half in? Easy to criticise or be sad @Parklaner81 @glorygloryeze and @scaramanga but harder to see a positive option for leaving. What would you suggest MPs put their weight behind? And how would that option work for the UK?
 
Rorschach said:
Some EU geek on a podcast I was listening too walked back the steps required for a new deal, and concluded that ship had sailed weeks ago. They concluded the only deal possible with the time left would be May's deal as is (not going to happen) or May's deal with NI backstop (remote chance of this). Any real divergence from the current WA will take too much time. I guess where there is a will there is a way, but I don't think even a short extension will be enough for something new.
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I think there's probably a point at which a 'new' deal and an acceptably-amended version of May's deal overlap, but yes I agree that taking everything into account it's highly unlikely to happen now.
 
Parklaner81 said:
I think there's probably a point at which a 'new' deal and an acceptably-amended version of May's deal overlap, but yes I agree that taking everything into account it's highly unlikely to happen now.
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No one really gives a brick about the money or the citizens' rights. 2/3rds of May's deal is uncontentious (apart from Farage trying to find some clear water).

The issue has always been the backstop locking the UK permanently into the customs union and parts of the single market (accepting state aid and competition laws etc.). Barnier's even said it again today:

"But ahead of Friday's meeting, Mr Barnier said the UK government's proposed solution to the backstop would put the single market at risk.

He said the UK's ideas so far involved managing different rules for customs and products on either side of the Irish border, rather than keeping them the same across the whole island."

So Barnier's issue with removing the backstop is that it would allow the UK would be able to become independent from the EU!
 
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Gutter Boy said:
No one really gives a brick about the money or the citizens' rights. 2/3rds of May's deal is uncontentious (apart from Farage trying to find some clear water).

The issue has always been the backstop looking the UK permanently into the customs union and parts of the single market (accepting state aid and competition laws etc.). Barnier's even said it again today:

"But ahead of Friday's meeting, Mr Barnier said the UK government's proposed solution to the backstop would put the single market at risk.

He said the UK's ideas so far involved managing different rules for customs and products on either side of the Irish border, rather than keeping them the same across the whole island."

So Barnier's issue with removing the backstop is that it would allow the UK would be able to become independent from the EU!
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That's a misread
 
SpurMeUp said:
It's all well and good lamenting Brexit not happening. But what is it people want to happen? A no deal exit, may's deal, or a Labour/Norway option where we're half in? Easy to criticise or be sad @Parklaner81 @glorygloryeze and @scaramanga but harder to see a positive option for leaving. What would you suggest MPs put their weight behind? And how would that option work for the UK?
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Rock paper scissors?

Seriously I'm bored. The ineptness of the original amateurish and badly thought out Conservative Party "referendum" has led us here.
Cummings and his sponsors are still in the game but only just.

Lib Dems for me. The only good brexit is a dead brexit.
 
Rorschach said:
That's a misread
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Go on then - explain.

He's basically saying we aren't allowed our own taxes, customs rates or standards. The issue should be how practically we manage those differences across that border, but no - he's fundamentally saying the problem with our position is that we aren't allowed to have differences.
 
StephenH said:
Rock paper scissors?

Seriously I'm bored. The ineptness of the original amateurish and badly thought out Conservative Party "referendum" has led us here.
Cummings and his sponsors are still in the game but only just.

Lib Dems for me. The only good brexit is a dead brexit.
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Oppression with sausages
 
Gutter Boy said:
Go on then - explain.

He's basically saying we aren't allowed our own taxes, customs rates or standards. The issue should be how practically we manage those differences across that border, but no - he's fundamentally saying the problem with our position is that we aren't allowed to have differences.
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You are asking me to explain why the backstop is needed? Really? You know the answer to this.
 
glorygloryeze said:
Yep. Depressing isn't it? I don't see a way out of this now, seems we will be staying in the EU forever more...:(
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The issue is the lies about how easy it was going to be “we hold all the cards etc” so the expectations where too high of how quickly and easy it is.

Why is there a rush too leave? What is the benefit in leaving in an unorganised mess.
 
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