Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
Exactly.
One of the key points of Brexit is that by returning power to Westminster, we'll become more democratic. So in 2022 if we vote for a nationalisation and strong unions government, we'll actually get it
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Politics, politics, politics
- Thread starter markysimmo
- Start date
Exactly.
One of the key points of Brexit is that by returning power to Westminster, we'll become more democratic. So in 2022 if we vote for a nationalisation and strong unions government, we'll actually get it
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
Because there's accountability. If a government is going astray, they get wiped away at the next election and we take a different path. Because we are constrained by the permanent neo-liberal framework of the EU, all recent British governments have just shrugged their shoulders and said 'we can't do anything about it'
fudge yes.
ShipOfTheseus
Clint Dempsey
Really good news today is that the Pictish courts have referred the question of Article 50 revocability to the ECJ. That's much more important than swivel-eyed May's risible Poundland Churchill performance.
Danishfurniturelover
the prettiest spice girl
I like a lot of that, but where will the money come from to scrap inheritance tax and stamp duty, as good as it is to scrap those they need to find the money from somewhere.
If they let tommy robinson join then they would be a far right party instead of a right wing party. He is a piece of brick.
Not happy with their hatred of wind farms, and to many members are gay hating nutters. The was a period 5 years or so ago when Farage was making a play and getting some Asians involved with UKIP, it was an interesting party then, now it is going a bit like Trumps America.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
UK Prime Minister Theresa May has said the EU must treat the UK with "respect" in Brexit negotiations.
In a statement at Downing Street she said for EU leaders to reject her plan with no alternative at this "late stage of negotiations" was "not acceptable".
A defiant Mrs May added: "I will not overturn the result of the referendum nor will I break up my country."
Mrs May's statement came after EU leaders said Chequers plan would not work, at a summit in Salzburg.
The prime minister said: "Throughout this process I have treated the EU with nothing but respect. The UK expects the same, a good relationship at the end of this process depends on it.
"At this late stage in the negotiations, it is not acceptable to simply reject the other side's proposals without a detailed explanation and counter proposals. So we now need to hear from the EU what the real issues are and what their alternative is so we can discuss them. Until we do, we cannot make progress."
She said the two sides were still "a long way apart" on two big issues: the post-Brexit economic relationship between the UK and EU, and the "backstop" for the Irish border, if there is a delay in implementing that relationship.
The two options being offered by the EU for the long-term relationship - for the UK to stay in the European Economic Area and customs union or a basic free trade agreement - were not acceptable, she added.
The first would "make a mockery of the referendum" she said, while the second would mean Northern Ireland would be "permanently separated economically from the rest of the UK by a border down the Irish Sea."
Mrs May said no UK prime minister would ever agree to that: "If the EU believe I will, they are making a fundamental mistake."
She added either would be a "bad deal" and repeated that "no deal is better than a bad deal".
She said the best outcome would be to leave with a deal and the UK had put forward a third way - her Chequers plan, which Donald Tusk had rejected on the grounds it would undermine the single market.
"He didn't explain how in any detail or make any counter proposal, so we are at an impasse," she said.
On the issue of the backstop, she stressed it would be unacceptable to keep Northern Ireland in the customs union, which would mean "breaking up our country".
The prime minister moved to reassure EU citizens living in the UK that, in the event no deal can be reached, "your rights will be protected": "You are our friends, our neighbours, our colleagues. We want you to stay."
And she stressed the government would do "everything in our power to prevent a return to a hard border" between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic.
She added that "no-one wants a good deal more than me" but she would not overturn the referendum result or break up the UK.
"We need serious engagement on resolving the two big problems in the negotiations. We stand ready."
The UK is due to leave the EU on 29 March 2019.
Mrs May says her plan for the UK and EU to share a "common rulebook" for goods, but not services, is the only credible way to avoid a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.
But it is opposed by some within her own party who argue it would compromise the UK's sovereignty. And it got a cool reception at this week's EU summit in Austria.
In a news conference, European Council President Donald Tusk said there were some "positive elements" in Mrs May's proposals, known as the Chequers plan.
But he said EU leaders had agreed that the proposals needed to be redrawn: "The suggested framework for economic co-operation will not work, not least because it is undermining the single market."
He followed it up by posting a photograph on Instagram of he and Mrs May looking at cakes with the caption: "A piece of cake, perhaps? Sorry, no cherries."
The EU has argued that the UK cannot "cherry-pick" elements from its rulebook.
Earlier Brexit Secretary Dominic Raab expressed doubt over how serious EU leaders were about the negotiations.
He told the BBC's Politics Live: "It did not feel like the reciprocation of the statesmanlike approach that she (Mrs May) has taken".
Brexit: Defiant words from PM may not be enough
Laura Kuenssberg
She didn't budge. And she was never going to.
After her embarrassment yesterday at the hands of EU leaders, with restive backbenchers at her back, Theresa May was never going to use this highly unusual appearance in Downing Street and dramatically reverse out of her position.
Simply, to back down less than 24 hours later would have looked weak.
And the prime minister has invested huge amounts of time, effort, and political capital into her Chequers plan.
Ministers never believed that it would be the precise form of the final agreement.
But Number 10 believed that in good faith, they had put something credible on the table for discussion.
She has already lost two cabinet ministers over the compromise, and endured weeks of attacks from different wings of her party.
So one, albeit, highly embarrassing diplomatic bust-up was not going to force her to back down.
Her anger was visible though today, explaining again why she believes the two familiar post-Brexit trade options, Norway and Canada, cannot, and will not work for the UK.
And she called for respect from the EU: "Throughout this process I have treated the EU with nothing but respect, the UK expects the same".
A stern tone, strong words.
And in going further on citizens' rights too, perhaps Mrs May has sought to take the high ground, in contrast to what some in the UK are seeing as the EU's poor behaviour yesterday.
But while there is no remote sign from the PM today that she is about to compromise, forces in the EU and in her own party are intent on forcing her to do so.
Her problem is that they want to push her in different directions.
Rhetoric doesn't change the fact that few of the players involved outside Number 10 believe that the suggestions the prime minister has put forward can be the ones that ultimately will win the day.
In a statement at Downing Street she said for EU leaders to reject her plan with no alternative at this "late stage of negotiations" was "not acceptable".
A defiant Mrs May added: "I will not overturn the result of the referendum nor will I break up my country."
Mrs May's statement came after EU leaders said Chequers plan would not work, at a summit in Salzburg.
The prime minister said: "Throughout this process I have treated the EU with nothing but respect. The UK expects the same, a good relationship at the end of this process depends on it.
"At this late stage in the negotiations, it is not acceptable to simply reject the other side's proposals without a detailed explanation and counter proposals. So we now need to hear from the EU what the real issues are and what their alternative is so we can discuss them. Until we do, we cannot make progress."
She said the two sides were still "a long way apart" on two big issues: the post-Brexit economic relationship between the UK and EU, and the "backstop" for the Irish border, if there is a delay in implementing that relationship.
The two options being offered by the EU for the long-term relationship - for the UK to stay in the European Economic Area and customs union or a basic free trade agreement - were not acceptable, she added.
The first would "make a mockery of the referendum" she said, while the second would mean Northern Ireland would be "permanently separated economically from the rest of the UK by a border down the Irish Sea."
Mrs May said no UK prime minister would ever agree to that: "If the EU believe I will, they are making a fundamental mistake."
She added either would be a "bad deal" and repeated that "no deal is better than a bad deal".
She said the best outcome would be to leave with a deal and the UK had put forward a third way - her Chequers plan, which Donald Tusk had rejected on the grounds it would undermine the single market.
"He didn't explain how in any detail or make any counter proposal, so we are at an impasse," she said.
On the issue of the backstop, she stressed it would be unacceptable to keep Northern Ireland in the customs union, which would mean "breaking up our country".
The prime minister moved to reassure EU citizens living in the UK that, in the event no deal can be reached, "your rights will be protected": "You are our friends, our neighbours, our colleagues. We want you to stay."
And she stressed the government would do "everything in our power to prevent a return to a hard border" between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic.
She added that "no-one wants a good deal more than me" but she would not overturn the referendum result or break up the UK.
"We need serious engagement on resolving the two big problems in the negotiations. We stand ready."
The UK is due to leave the EU on 29 March 2019.
Mrs May says her plan for the UK and EU to share a "common rulebook" for goods, but not services, is the only credible way to avoid a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.
But it is opposed by some within her own party who argue it would compromise the UK's sovereignty. And it got a cool reception at this week's EU summit in Austria.
In a news conference, European Council President Donald Tusk said there were some "positive elements" in Mrs May's proposals, known as the Chequers plan.
But he said EU leaders had agreed that the proposals needed to be redrawn: "The suggested framework for economic co-operation will not work, not least because it is undermining the single market."
He followed it up by posting a photograph on Instagram of he and Mrs May looking at cakes with the caption: "A piece of cake, perhaps? Sorry, no cherries."
The EU has argued that the UK cannot "cherry-pick" elements from its rulebook.
Earlier Brexit Secretary Dominic Raab expressed doubt over how serious EU leaders were about the negotiations.
He told the BBC's Politics Live: "It did not feel like the reciprocation of the statesmanlike approach that she (Mrs May) has taken".
Brexit: Defiant words from PM may not be enough
Laura Kuenssberg
She didn't budge. And she was never going to.
After her embarrassment yesterday at the hands of EU leaders, with restive backbenchers at her back, Theresa May was never going to use this highly unusual appearance in Downing Street and dramatically reverse out of her position.
Simply, to back down less than 24 hours later would have looked weak.
And the prime minister has invested huge amounts of time, effort, and political capital into her Chequers plan.
Ministers never believed that it would be the precise form of the final agreement.
But Number 10 believed that in good faith, they had put something credible on the table for discussion.
She has already lost two cabinet ministers over the compromise, and endured weeks of attacks from different wings of her party.
So one, albeit, highly embarrassing diplomatic bust-up was not going to force her to back down.
Her anger was visible though today, explaining again why she believes the two familiar post-Brexit trade options, Norway and Canada, cannot, and will not work for the UK.
And she called for respect from the EU: "Throughout this process I have treated the EU with nothing but respect, the UK expects the same".
A stern tone, strong words.
And in going further on citizens' rights too, perhaps Mrs May has sought to take the high ground, in contrast to what some in the UK are seeing as the EU's poor behaviour yesterday.
But while there is no remote sign from the PM today that she is about to compromise, forces in the EU and in her own party are intent on forcing her to do so.
Her problem is that they want to push her in different directions.
Rhetoric doesn't change the fact that few of the players involved outside Number 10 believe that the suggestions the prime minister has put forward can be the ones that ultimately will win the day.
ShipOfTheseus
Clint Dempsey
It's for domestic consumption only. She's banking on the ERG squad at conference being so incensed by the Instagram cake burn that they rally behind Tess and the union flag. Cavilling is inappropriate when we are At War with Dastardly Hun and Cowardly Frog. So she buys another few weeks. That's all anything she does is ever aimed at achieving.
Baleforce
Ron Henry
all I can think is that making no deal seem so likely she may get away with a climb down agreement later on
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
And of course she is swinging it so whatever comes next is the EU's fault and not hers.
Baleforce
Ron Henry
she can try that, but seeing as the EU have already offered 5 reasonable options it's a weightless throw
all this stems from painting herself into a corner to start with
we are going to end up with a border between NI and the EU
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
They have offered 5 options that dont fit our criteria. Just as we have done similar for them. Its negotiation.
Or not, as at this point it seems to me they are just fudging her about until she folds and takes a terrible deal for us which leaves them tinkling themselves laughing.
Or not, as at this point it seems to me they are just fudging her about until she folds and takes a terrible deal for us which leaves them tinkling themselves laughing.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
The EU have really only offered one option - the punishment of Norway
Canada, which would be the best, is hindered by the need for either a land border in Ireland or the speeding up of a United Ireland
Chequers, which they've turned down, was actually one of the 5 on Barnier's PowerPoint - it's basically Ukraine. But was seemingly never really on offer
Baleforce
Ron Henry
Ukraine are under ECJ - that's against our red line we never wanted Ukraine unless we are after Ukraine+. Also seems like we would have to stay within EU laws in the majority. It is not Chequers
https://www.cer.eu/insights/ukraine-model-brexit-dissociation-just-association
"The three countries only have improved access to those sectors where their laws are aligned (‘approximated’) to European ones. If a dispute arises relating to regulatory approximation or to an interpretation of EU law, the arbitration panel that oversees the agreement must request a ruling from the European Court of Justice, whose verdicts are legally binding (known as a ‘preliminary reference’). Other than on such issues, the arbitrators oversee the agreement without any ECJ involvement.
-Ukraine, for example, will have to implement 80 to 90 per cent of the acquis communautaire (the body of EU law and regulations).
-Ukraine and the EU can freely trade goods (with the exception of some agricultural and metal exports) without additional testing, under a Conformity Assessment Agreement, so long as Ukraine obeys European technical standards.
-is also worth noting that the association countries are not in a customs union with the EU, so border checks are still required.1 Therefore, a comparable EU-UK association agreement would not solve the Irish border issue.
-Ukraine does not yet have deep access to most EU service sectors, and many are excluded completely. For instance, the EU and some individual member-states have put in place a total of 46 restrictions on Ukraine’s access to financial services markets. Such restrictions are in place because the joint EU-Ukraine Trade Committee has not certified sufficient progress on regulatory alignment.
-The association countries can participate in numerous EU agencies....Again, participation is contingent upon alignment with EU law in these areas."
If the negotiations continue as is, then there will be no deal and a hard Brexit. Parliament can only vote on a government deal, but if there isn't one then what can they do?
Theresa May is like Del Boy in the hang-glider -- she's been bluffing all along and is gonna have to end up running off the cliff and see what happens.
monkeybarry
Ian Walker
UK voting history suggests otherwise.
And beside, who cares what the opposition says? The Tories don't.
You push legislation through piece by price over one or two parliamentary terms to normalise it. Easily done, especially with fixed term parliaments.
Change of Govt rarely leads to mass changes in legislation, that would be destabilising.
And besides, we will to "somewhere else" for identity, and we won't look East because we just left.
That only leaves North (possible if we can get labour In power) or West, which is most likely because many Brits still admire the positives of the US without an appreciation of the trade offs