Politics, politics, politics

[ShipOfTheseus]

The latter, but we must also force the dildo brothers to sell West Ham so that we can flog them Chelsea for a pound -- all Chelsea's debt to Abramovich now owed to The Treasury.

As for donations to political parties, imo the rules should all be changed for everybody. Get the money out of politics. Donations by individuals only and limit that to a very small amount per year. Limit the size of membership fees too, if they aren't already (as no doubt you'd get the Tories offering a membership for 50 grand if you limited their donations). No individual or entity should be able to buy our democracy.

A position to gladden the hearts of Momentum and infuriate not just Unite, but the whole TUC. And a very nice idea in theory.

Whether legislation can get the money out of politics is moot, though, and in some ways the effect on democracy is even more corrosive when the money goes underground. Astroturfing was bad enough when it took hold of traditional media and lobbying, when it's applied to social media as well there's no meaningful way to follow the money.

 

[the dza]

A position to gladden the hearts of Momentum and infuriate not just Unite, but the whole TUC. And a very nice idea in theory.

Whether legislation can get the money out of politics is moot, though, and in some ways the effect on democracy is even more corrosive when the money goes underground. Astroturfing was bad enough when it took hold of traditional media and lobbying, when it's applied to social media as well there's no meaningful way to follow the money.

I guess some things are more difficult to police. I don't like that people can pay £150k to have a game of tennis with our senior politicians though.

I'm a member of the GMB, I think unions could be smart enough to encourage their members to donate to the political party that the union endorses. Labour's finances would take a hit in the short term but would recover longer term, imo, particularly if they keep encouraging people to join.

I hope Labour, in their next manifesto, drive a bulldozer through the whole donations/lobbying system.

 

[Gutter Boy]

The latter, but we must also force the dildo brothers to sell West Ham so that we can flog them Chelsea for a pound -- all Chelsea's debt to Abramovich now owed to The Treasury.

As for donations to political parties, imo the rules should all be changed for everybody. Get the money out of politics. Donations by individuals only and limit that to a very small amount per year. Limit the size of membership fees too, if they aren't already (as no doubt you'd get the Tories offering a membership for 50 grand if you limited their donations). No individual or entity should be able to buy our democracy.

State funding for political parties would be the best solution (so long as their is provision to support new entries). It would remove a lot of the unhealthy influence on all sides.

 

[Rorschach]

Another Russian found mysteriously dead.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ikolai-glushkov-found-dead-at-his-london-home

 

[Gutter Boy]

Chelsea rent boy, they're coming for you...

 

[the dza]

Another Russian found mysteriously dead.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ikolai-glushkov-found-dead-at-his-london-home

I wonder why this is happening now, if it's connected to the spy poisoning? They do have an election coming up over there, but it's not like Putin is in any danger of losing it.

The political reaction is also interesting. Was a collective shrug of the shoulders with the person who was killed with polonium, this time the tone of the response is stronger (perhaps because there is a policeman who is also ill) but nobody has actually died (yet), unlike the last time. Since that last one, politicians have been fine taking donations from those with Kremlin connections, and politicians from both sides have been on RT since that incident. Now they are talking about shutting down RT over here, which will sadden the 300 regular viewers they must get.

I have some sympathy for the government on this one, it's tough for them to respond. It's not like we can go there and poison some double-agent in response even if we wanted to, their society isn't as open as ours so stuff like that is much more difficult. Nobody wants things to escalate on the oe hand, on the other it's hard to come up with a response that Putin will give 2 phucks about. Overall, I think it'll be a bit of window dressing from the government, with harsher words than anything else -- and to be honest, that's probably the most sensible call.

I do, however, think they should go after the money of spivs with Kremlin connections. I don't think Putin will care about that either, but it'd be a positive to come from the whole situation. Then again, I am guessing prior political contributions were insurance against such action being taken...

 

[the dza]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...tin-may-have-engineered-gruesome-calling-card

One former senior Foreign Office adviser said it was a mistake to assume that Skripal’s spy work for MI6 triggered the decision to poison him in Salisbury. Skripal was merely the “instrument”. The real target was the UK, he said. “I don’t think it was about Skripal. It was a geo-political intervention.”

The adviser added: “Moscow’s goal is to demonstrate the UK’s weakness and isolation and to drive a wedge between us and other countries. The Kremlin understands how to make these sorts of interventions at just below the level that will trigger a serious collective reaction against them.”


If May fails to react adequately, she would appear weak. If she tries to fight back against Russia, she would discover the limits of collective solidarity, the adviser suggested.

 

[SpurMeUp]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...tin-may-have-engineered-gruesome-calling-card

One former senior Foreign Office adviser said it was a mistake to assume that Skripal’s spy work for MI6 triggered the decision to poison him in Salisbury. Skripal was merely the “instrument”. The real target was the UK, he said. “I don’t think it was about Skripal. It was a geo-political intervention.”

The adviser added: “Moscow’s goal is to demonstrate the UK’s weakness and isolation and to drive a wedge between us and other countries. The Kremlin understands how to make these sorts of interventions at just below the level that will trigger a serious collective reaction against them.”


If May fails to react adequately, she would appear weak. If she tries to fight back against Russia, she would discover the limits of collective solidarity, the adviser suggested.

This is the kind of histrionics that seems to surround reporting of all things Russia in the western media. They are not that clever! What they are is blunt. Other empires secrete services do their dirty work with greater care. And that statement is true both outside Russia and inside - see the way they dealt with hostages in the ballet. They pumped in gas killing half the people inside hostages and Chechen terrorists alike.

A spy turns tail and works for the other side. He's on a list of wanted men. The list was probably drawn up a decade ago. The spy goes to a funeral revealing his whereabouts, and Putin's secrete service inflicts revenge.

 

[the dza]

This is the kind of histrionics that seems to surround reporting of all things Russia in the western media. They are not that clever! What they are is blunt. Other empires secrete services do their dirty work with greater care. And that statement is true both outside Russia and inside - see the way they dealt with hostages in the ballet. They pumped in gas killing half the people inside hostages and Chechen terrorists alike.

A spy turns tail and works for the other side. He's on a list of wanted men. The list was probably drawn up a decade ago. The spy goes to a funeral revealing his whereabouts, and Putin's secrete service inflicts revenge.

But they could have killed him quietly, I think is the point. They poisoned him using a method that they know would be traced back to them. Unless they genuinely thought it couldn't be traced. As yet, they haven't even killed him.

Plus, he wasn't wanted, was he? As I understood it, they released him in a prisoner swap years ago. I might have missed some info somewhere though.

 

[SpurMeUp]

But they could have killed him quietly, I think is the point. They poisoned him using a method that they know would be traced back to them. Unless they genuinely thought it couldn't be traced. As yet, they haven't even killed him.

Plus, he wasn't wanted, was he? As I understood it, they released him in a prisoner swap years ago. I might have missed some info somewhere though.

The reason its public is to send a message to any potential dissidents not some "geopolitical" chess game. Russia doesn't care about us that much. Its laughable media gonad*s. They go on like Russia is some kind of alien 'other' some brilliant cunning state. No. They are pretty crude and blunt. They didn't mean to kill all the innocent hostages at the ballet either, but someone made the macho proactive decision to use the gas, and 170 of their own people lost their lives. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis

Russia sees the spy as their own property, and as a traitor, will not hold back killing him in such a manner.

 

[the dza]

The reason its public is to send a message to any potential dissidents not some "geopolitical" chess game. Russia doesn't care about us that much. Its laughable media gonads. They go on like Russia is some kind of alien 'other' some brilliant cunning state. No. They are pretty crude and blunt. They didn't mean to kill all the innocent hostages at the ballet either, but someone made the macho proactive decision to use the gas, and 170 of their own people lost their lives. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis

Russia sees the spy as their own property, and as a traitor, will not hold back killing him in such a manner.

That is the simplest explanation so probably the correct one.

Still, never let a good crisis go to waste. Roman, it's time to give up on Chelsea, go and buy a nice team in Switzerland. Stamford Bridge will make a nice Tesco.

 

[SpurMeUp]

That is the simplest explanation so probably the correct one.

Still, never let a good crisis go to waste. Roman, it's time to give up on Chelsea, go and buy a nice team in Switzerland. Stamford Bridge will make a nice Tesco.

It is quite fascinating what happened with the USSR and Russia. How a few got hold of the power and resources, how the US tried to break up Russia's influence over the former Soviet republics and how Russia retaliated. None of it is clearly outlined, but there are signs of what history will show. The revolution in Ukraine for example. It was clearly orchestrated. Funded, fuelled, and set on removing the pro-Russian democratically elected president. Was it the US? There are open records of $4bn being spent by the US on "Ukrainian democracy". Funding right wing groups to instigate revolution. Classic cold war tactics that were seen across south america and africa.

If you care to, you can look at the Madain square protests and riots which were the catalyst for civil war in Ukraine. An EU representative doctor finds that snipers - using the same bullets - are killing people on both sides. In other words one entity is instigating the violence. It is barely reported in the west. Was it Russia or the CIA using right wing neo-nazis? Both Russia and the US behave like classic empires. Either is possible, but likely it was external as Russia was happy with the status quo. Russia had the last laugh as they reclaimed Crimea. Yet its terrible what it has done to Ukraine, and to a nation that used to be entwined with Russia (families who were accross the boarder don't speak anymore etc). It's the Big Game - actual geopolitics - where rich nations play with the stability and lives of poor nations to try and influence their desired outcome. Syria is no different.

Is it Russia who behaves like a cold war throwback, or the right wing in the US, who can not let go of old foreign policy habits?

 

[Rorschach]

Mods, I think there is a russian bot on the forum.

Kidding!

 

[SpurMeUp]

Mods, I think there is a russian bot on the forum.

Kidding!

I might be going to Moscow next week, so need to ensure I'm all clear.

 

[Rorschach]

I might be going to Moscow next week, so need to ensure I'm all clear.

Work or golden shower?

 

[Rorschach]

Is it not a sphere of influence agenda with Russia? With NATO creeping up to their doorstep this push back is a somewhat predictable response. Their proxy involvement in wars like Syria and other places is a flexing of their muscles in a show of relevance?
I have no doubt that western media influences my thinking on all things Russian but they don't seem to get much good press on anything really.

Here's a question I would like to know the answer to. Is Putin a popular leader?

 

[SpurMeUp]

Work or golden shower?

Both if possible.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Is it not a sphere of influence agenda with Russia? With NATO creeping up to their doorstep this push back is a somewhat predictable response. Their proxy involvement in wars like Syria and other places is a flexing of their muscles in a show of relevance?
I have no doubt that western media influences my thinking on all things Russian but they don't seem to get much good press on anything really.

Here's a question I would like to know the answer to. Is Putin a popular leader?

Putin is popular. This story is not big in Russia. Even online (where the state doesn't control the media) it's not a big story. They have an election now, and we have no other news currently. There is no opposition, but a lot of people genuinely love Putin. He's strong, he stands up for Russia, and he brought a form a stability to Russia when it was in a state of semi chaos; with Oligarchs and mafia doing as they pleased. That is still going on, but you have to be part of the Putin elite to get a slice. Its controlled. Its not anarchy. When Putin came to power he got all the Oligarchs together and told them not to get involved in politics or use politics to further their businesses. Some ignored him and landed in jail on corruption charges. Where Putin hasn't done well is investing as much into education, instead Russia spends a monstrous amount on arms and military development.

I don't think this spy poisoning is about sphere of influence. The spy was providing info to various agencies on Russian secret service details. He was publicly dealt with to stop others doing the same. Syria is not a game to Russia, they have lost many lives and spent billions, but sphere of influence comes into it. The Asad family regime has always been an ally going back many decades. Russia also has a Islamist problem itself with Chechens etc and I think the greatest number of foreign ISIS fighters came from Russia or ex-USSR so controlling ISIS was important to them.

More or less everyone in our foreign office and around the world knew that the most sensible way to deal with Syria, when people were protesting and ISIS were growing, was to work with Asad. Not only have we seen what regime change has done to Libya (lawlessness, civil war between rival freedom fighter groups and more destruction) Asad was actually a relatively decent guy pre-barrel bombs. Trained as a dentist in the UK, he was progressive and modern. He never really wanted to be King. Russia's plan to work with the existing regime and reach stability was a logical one, one that the west understood too. If others were not funding the opposition, it would have been simple to stabilise the country and get rid of ISIS. The problem was others didn't like the Syrian regime. They were too close to anti-israel groups etc etc etc. The amount of money pumped into various armed groups in Syria by different nations is astonishing. This diagram shows just how many outside influences were fuking with Syria trying to influence geo-politics. The people of Syria are the losers. Yet, you could argue that without Russia helping to take control, a worse civil war might of raged for many years, as is the case in Libya.

 

[Rorschach]

Putin is popular. This story is not big in Russia. Even online (where the state doesn't control the media) it's not a big story. They have an election now, and we have no other news currently. There is no opposition, but a lot of people genuinely love Putin. He's strong, he stands up for Russia, and he brought a form a stability to Russia when it was in a state of semi chaos; with Oligarchs and mafia doing as they pleased. That is still going on, but you have to be part of the Putin elite to get a slice. Its controlled. Its not anarchy. When Putin came to power he got all the Oligarchs together and told them not to get involved in politics or use politics to further their businesses. Some ignored him and landed in jain with corruption charges. Where Putin hasn't done well is investing as much into education, instead Russia spends a monstrous amount on arms and military development.

I don't think this spy poisoning is about sphere of influence. The spy was providing info to various agencies on Russian secret service details. He was publicly dealt with to stop others doing the same. Syria is not a game to Russia, they have lost many lives and spent billions, but sphere of influence comes into it. The Asad family regime has always been an ally going back many decades. Russia also has a Islamist problem itself with Chechens etc and I think the greatest number of foreign ISIS fighters came from Russia or ex-USSR so controlling ISIS was important to them.

More or less everyone in our foreign office and around the world knew that the most sensible way to deal with Syria, when people were protesting and ISIS were growing, was to work with Asad. Not only have we seen what regime change has done to Libya (lawlessness, civil war between rival freedom fighter groups and more destruction) Asad was actually a relatively decent guy pre-barrel bombs. Trained as a dentist in the UK, he was progressive and modern. He never really wanted to be King. Russia's plan to work with the existing regime and reach stability was a logical one, one that the west understood too. If others were not funding the opposition, it would have been simple to stabilise the country and get rid of ISIS. The problem was others didn't like the Syrian regime. They were too close to anti-israel groups etc etc etc. The amount of money pumped into various armed groups in Syria by different nations is astonishing. This diagram shows just how many outside influences were fuking with Syria trying to influence geo-politics. The people of Syria are the losers. Yet, you could argue that without Russia helping to take control, a worse civil war might of raged for many years, as is the case in Libya.

I didn't mean that the poisoning was a sphere of influence thing.

Cheers for the post. I'll digest that.

 

[Rorschach]

@SpurMeUp
Are you Russian?