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*** The Official Boxing/UFC/MMA thread ***

The Wilder knockout on Stiverne doesn't make the AJ fight any more immediate imo. That result was always going to occur and as far as I am concerned I would keep AJ away from Wilder just for the time being, left the battle bubble up a little and let AJ go and take the Parker belt so he holds much more sway than Wilder when the time comes. Wilder is nothing to be scared of and has fought absolutely no one. This is a man who was fighting the likes of Audley Harrison, Jason Gavern and Malik Scott as recently as 2014 - complete and utter journeyman and won his title in a vacant matchup, he didn't beat a champion to win it regardless of who they were. At least AJ can say he took on a champion and took the belt from him regardless of his level and Charles Martin is a higher level than Jason Gavern et al. All that will happen is that Wilder will defend against Dominic Brezeale and then follow up with a mandatory against Andy Ruiz, bypassing Dillian Whyte because he doesn't like the risk even though he would beat him.

Joshua should fight Ustinov in March as WBA mandatory just to keep the belt, fight Parker (let him have a mandatory in Feb/March) in July at Wembley in a IBF/WBA/WBO unification and then fight Pulev in order to fulfil his mandatory status. 3 wins hopefully with 2 fairly credible names on his CV, especially Pulev's and then 3 belts rather than 2. Leave Wilder and Fury till 2019 so that it has a bigger build up, AJ has more belts and has a much better CV than either and can then really command the box seat regardless of argument.
 
^^^
I can completely see the business logic in what you suggest, but as a fan I absolutely don't want things to go that way.

Yes, Joshua v. Wilder might be a slightly bigger fight a year or two down the line. But the upside is pretty limited as far as I can see. It's a massive, massive fight right now. They're both undefeated heavyweight champions with (virtually) all the belts between them and more or less one hundred % KO records apiece. Each of them going off and fighting 2 or 3 other opponents in pursuit of what I think would be a minor further elevation is a huge risk for little reward from a fan perspective.

Think of the some of the fights that didn't happen when they should have, and lost all (or much) of their value as a result. I've already referred to David Price vs. Tyson Fury. Admittedly that one would've been below world level, but it really would've been a serious clash at the time. What happened? Lost all value when Price went on the suffer heavy consecutive stoppages to mediocre opposition. I think I'm right in saying that Fury claimed to have turned it down out of wanting to build it into a bigger spectacle for the future. For a much higher profile example, everybody knows that Mayweather vs. Paciquao happened a good five years after it's sell-by date. Imagine if Lennox Lewis vs. Mike Tyson had happened in 1996, when Lewis was Tyson's WBC mandatory? Lewis vs. Riddingdong Bowe.....

Get it on right now, or at the very least get it seriously pencilled in for mid-late 2018. I don't want to add this fight to the list.
 
Parklaner81 said:
^^^
I can completely see the business logic in what you suggest, but as a fan I absolutely don't want things to go that way.

Yes, Joshua v. Wilder might be a slightly bigger fight a year or two down the line. But the upside is pretty limited as far as I can see. It's a massive, massive fight right now. They're both undefeated heavyweight champions with (virtually) all the belts between them and more or less one hundred % KO records apiece. Each of them going off and fighting 2 or 3 other opponents in pursuit of what I think would be a minor further elevation is a huge risk for little reward from a fan perspective.

Think of the some of the fights that didn't happen when they should have, and lost all (or much) of their value as a result. I've already referred to David Price vs. Tyson Fury. Admittedly that one would've been below world level, but it really would've been a serious clash at the time. What happened? Lost all value when Price went on the suffer heavy consecutive stoppages to mediocre opposition. I think I'm right in saying that Fury claimed to have turned it down out of wanting to build it into a bigger spectacle for the future. For a much higher profile example, everybody knows that Mayweather vs. Paciquao happened a good five years after it's sell-by date. Imagine if Lennox Lewis vs. Mike Tyson had happened in 1996, when Lewis was Tyson's WBC mandatory? Lewis vs. Riddingdong Bowe.....

Get it on right now, or at the very least get it seriously pencilled in for mid-late 2018. I don't want to add this fight to the list.
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I do hear all of that and of course with the unification of those belts then the mandatory steps aside but those last fights you mention, those were established names with very credible CVs by comparison to Wilder. Whilst he obviously has something, I am not desperate to see it with AJ just yet. If it happens then cool but I am not clamouring for it. To me, it is just as attractive to go fight Parker, that's how much of a sell Wilder is to me tbh. There isn't a downside to AJ going off and doing what I said, there is for Wilder. If AJ gets beat then the PR machine will kick into overdrive and he will come again and be attractive opposition for any potential opponent because of the numbers. I don't believe that to be the case for Wilder. He needs the AJ fight much more to raise his profile and make the numbers count for the first time in a 39 fight career........imagine making that many fights and still AJ earns more from wearing Beats earphones at presser than you do for fighting a bum?

So I am going to have to disagree with you. AJ should fight the next mandatory to keep the WBA sweet and then go for Parker. If they want to squeeze a Wilder/AJ bout into the mix for this time next year then cool but I want to see Wilder fight someone or a couple of someone's who are worthy of being an opponent for a world title because up to now, I ain't seen that at all. For a start, he can face Whyte as a mandatory sometime next year and then someone like David Haye despite his performance against Bellew or Luis Ortiz if he gets a minimal ban? Maybe even reschedule with Povetkin to show he really is is a worthy champion. Stop calling out other world champions and start fighting credible opponents would be my response to him and Lou DiBella.
 
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Libero said:
I do hear all of that and of course with the unification of those belts then the mandatory steps aside but those last fights you mention, those were established names with very credible CVs by comparison to Wilder. Whilst he obviously has something, I am not desperate to see it with AJ just yet. If it happens then cool but I am not clamouring for it. To me, it is just as attractive to go fight Parker, that's how much of a sell Wilder is to me tbh. There isn't a downside to AJ going off and doing what I said, there is for Wilder. If AJ gets beat then the PR machine will kick into overdrive and he will come again and be attractive opposition for any potential opponent because of the numbers. I don't believe that to be the case for Wilder. He needs the AJ fight much more to raise his profile and make the numbers count for the first time in a 39 fight career........imagine making that many fights and still AJ earns more from wearing Beats earphones at presser than you do for fighting a bum?

So I am going to have to disagree with you. AJ should fight the next mandatory to keep the WBA sweet and then go for Parker. If they want to squeeze a Wilder/AJ bout into the mix for this time next year then cool but I want to see Wilder fight someone or a couple of someone's who are worthy of being an opponent for a world title because up to now, I ain't seen that at all. For a start, he can face Whyte as a mandatory sometime next year and then someone like David Haye despite his performance against Bellew or Luis Ortiz if he gets a minimal ban? Maybe even reschedule with Povetkin to show he really is is a worthy champion. Stop calling out other world champions and start fighting credible opponents would be my response to him and Lou DiBella.
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Sure, I think we can agree to disagree on it, that's fine.

It does seem though as if we're looking at it from slightly different angles. It seems to me that your argument is that of a Joshua supporter/backer - not trying to put words in your mouth in any way, that's just the way I'm interpreting your comments. I'm not a Joshua fan, nor a Wilder fan (I was a Klitschko fan, just to declare!). I want this fight to happen now because I think it's the most compelling heavyweight fight out there. No other reason.

Joshua vs. Parker, or Fury, or even David Haye would all be interesting fights that I'd like to see. I'd give each of those fighters a chance of victory over Joshua. BUT, it would be a slim chance in each case. I'd make Joshua the heavy favourite going into any one of those fights. Ortiz would be interesting too, but who knows what's going on there. Drop below that level though, to the likes of Pulev etc. and in my opinion you begin to lose any competitive interest altogether (good for Joshua and his promoters maybe, not so good for neutral boxing fans).

Wilder, on the other hand, would be a true 50/50 fight in my opinion. I can't think of any other opponent for Joshua that could create that kind of situation or attraction (Joshua vs. Vitali Klitschko I would love to have seen by the way, even now, but obviously that's not realistic). And as I said earlier, that is put at risk by delaying the fight too long. Who knows, maybe something better will come along. But maybe it won't. That's why I want it made sooner than later.
 
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Parklaner81 said:
Sure, I think we can agree to disagree on it, that's fine.

It does seem though as if we're looking at it from slightly different angles. It seems to me that your argument is that of a Joshua supporter/backer - not trying to put words in your mouth in any way, that's just the way I'm interpreting your comments. I'm not a Joshua fan, nor a Wilder fan (I was a Klitschko fan, just to declare!). I want this fight to happen now because I think it's the most compelling heavyweight fight out there. No other reason.

Joshua vs. Parker, or Fury, or even David Haye would all be interesting fights that I'd like to see. I'd give each of those fighters a chance of victory over Joshua. BUT, it would be a slim chance in each case. I'd make Joshua the heavy favourite going into any one of those fights. Ortiz would be interesting too, but who knows what's going on there. Drop below that level though, to the likes of Pulev etc. and in my opinion you begin to lose any competitive interest altogether (good for Joshua and his promoters maybe, not so good for neutral boxing fans).

Wilder, on the other hand, would be a true 50/50 fight in my opinion. I can't think of any other opponent for Joshua that could create that kind of situation or attraction (Joshua vs. Vitali Klitschko I would love to have seen by the way, even now, but obviously that's not realistic). And as I said earlier, that is put at risk by delaying the fight too long. Who knows, maybe something better will come along. But maybe it won't. That's why I want it made sooner than later.
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Don't disagree with that at all. I am a fan of AJ but having said all that, I am not totally convinced he is the machine trying to be portrayed. I have seen enough from what Whyte did during the 7 rounds and what Klitschko did during their fight to be concerned that he is not only easily got at during the right circumstances but that he is also a bit gung ho during a fight if the circumstances sway him. So a fight with Wilder is a 50/50 but it is so because imo we haven't seen anyone actually fight Wilder and therefore don't know enough about him truly to speculate with any real evidence.

It is a compelling fight but I still think the Parker fight is equally compelling for different reasons as well as any British match up like Haye or Fury.

Would have to disagree on Pulev, I think he is a fighter that can cause AJ problems. He has a strong amateur pedigree and is quite durable, much in the way Takam is which I knew would be a tough fight for AJ because he is just so durable himself. Totally get that he would be a big favourite in that fight but as with the Takam fight, it doesn't always translate to being an easy nights work.
 
AJ is not as good as the media machine make him out to be, Wilder is right that Hearn has created a machine thats clouded the fact AJ has fought no one of any note other than Wlad yet Hearn has convinced the UK day tripping fight fans that he is more than he is. Wilder knows what he is and maybe thats why he is not a loved as AJ either side of the pond. Both are about as talented in boxing terms as each other and that for me is what makes the fight the best out there.

In my cynical seat I don't see this fight next, they will build up the rivalry which AJ looks after his mandatory and maybe a summer fight in UK in on cards
 
Grays_1890 said:
AJ is not as good as the media machine make him out to be, Wilder is right that Hearn has created a machine thats clouded the fact AJ has fought no one of any note other than Wlad yet Hearn has convinced the UK day tripping fight fans that he is more than he is. Wilder knows what he is and maybe thats why he is not a loved as AJ either side of the pond. Both are about as talented in boxing terms as each other and that for me is what makes the fight the best out there.

In my cynical seat I don't see this fight next, they will build up the rivalry which AJ looks after his mandatory and maybe a summer fight in UK in on cards
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Pretty much my line of thinking. Hearn is going to want to aim to leave the Wilder fight as long as possible in my opinion, because it's the biggest risk to his cash cow. He'll want Joshua to take every other available fight first, including wheeling Fury back out, and then there's the chance of Wilder getting beaten in the meantime - and don't forget of course that it doesn't automatically follow that just because somebody beats Wilder, they'll be as big a threat to Joshua as Wilder was. Joshua vs. Parker next is my bet, still an interesting fight, but reeks of 'careful matchmaking' a little bit to me.

It will be very interesting though to see whether Wilder can bounce them into taking it sooner than they'd like, with all the talking he's been doing the past day or two.
 
the dza said:
Fury v Joshua is the fight I'd like to see the most.
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It'd be interesting for sure, but I'd expect Joshua to win by knockout. From what I recall, Fury had a fair few close calls during his earlier career, at well below world level. It's a shame that his proposed fights vs. Price and Haye didn't happen. We'd know a lot more about him if they had. As it stands, he is where he is in terms of stature off one fight against a well below-par Klitschko. And don't forget that that rematch fell through twice as well....

So I wouldn't give Fury much chance against Joshua. Then again, I didn't when he fought Wlad either, so who knows.
 
Grays_1890 said:
Cunningham knocked Fury down and he was a cruiser weight.

Fury won't box again, I just can not see it
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That's definitely one of the ones I was thinking of. I also have a hazy memory of him being in pretty big trouble against a somewhat out of shape (to put it politely!), lower grade opponent (probably north american) before that. I could be mistaken though.
 
I'd love to see Fury back but the radio today said that he's 9 stone over where he needs to be so we're looking at summer at the earliest assuming his hearing goes well. Even then he'll need 2/3 tune up fights before he can compete at world level again.
 
Libero said:
I've always been a fan of Haye but I really hope he literally says nothing in the build up to this and lets his fists do the talking if his body can manage it. Difficult to like Bellew who for me when he says stuff, it is normally quite spiteful or bitter (a typical Evertonian trait). Would love to say Haye do it but I am going to predict that the fight will be cancelled by November due to injury for Haye and won't be rescheduled once Christmas is out of the way.
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https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/4896112/david-haye-vs-tony-bellew-rematch-under-threat/

This rematch is such an intriguing prospect, I'm going to be gutted if you've called this spot-on...!
 
Parklaner81 said:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/4896112/david-haye-vs-tony-bellew-rematch-under-threat/

This rematch is such an intriguing prospect, I'm going to be gutted if you've called this spot-on...!
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I just had a feeling way back that Haye just cannot get fully fit. He will always have niggles and sadly this will not surprise me if it falls through and then really Bellew has to go back fight at Cruiserweight where I think he is champion emeritus for WBC? might be wrong but not sure how it will work but he might be first in line for Briedis? * Just checked and it appears that he would have been interim champion but Bellew actually vacated which I had seen no coverage of at all.
 
Haye's problem is that he doesn't train properly, he's always out in restaurants, at football ground, general celebrity and glamour showing everywhere. Doesn't seem like he's capable of locking himself away for 2-3 months and getting a really good training camp in. Before the first fight he spent the whole time in Miami sitting around on expensive yachts, no wonder he was gassed out after 2/3 rounds.
 
Haye vs. Fury fell through twice if I recall correctly, and I'm sure both times it was at Haye's end.

Hard to see where Haye goes though if this fight falls away, unless it gets immediately rescheduled. Who knows, it could even be mind games, trying to lure Bellew into the kind of complacency Haye himself seemed to display before the first fight.

Fingers crossed the fight survives whatever the truth of the matter...
 
Interesting to see that Fury has a twitter poll running over who his comeback opponent should be, and David Price is one of the names on it...

Price may have been completely exposed, but he still has the power to be a genuine threat to Fury.

Yes please...!
 
P.D. said:
Haye's problem is that he doesn't train properly, he's always out in restaurants, at football ground, general celebrity and glamour showing everywhere. Doesn't seem like he's capable of locking himself away for 2-3 months and getting a really good training camp in. Before the first fight he spent the whole time in Miami sitting around on expensive yachts, no wonder he was gassed out after 2/3 rounds.
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I know someone that trained in his gym and apparently its the opposite, he is too intense and with his muscle level he needs to rest in between training more than he does.

Too much weight training and strain with lack of rest days.

(I would blame his Vegan diet but that might create a riot) Kidding
 
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