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Politics, politics, politics part deux

Discussion in 'Randomination' started by SpurMeUp, 19 Feb 2019.

  1. scaramanga

    scaramanga David Ginola Staff Member

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    Hatton's a fudging scumbag who doesn't deserve oxygen. I don't think anti-Semitism is why though.
     
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  2. r-u-s-x

    r-u-s-x Roman Pavlyuchenko

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    Last edited: 22 Feb 2019
  3. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Les Ferdinand

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    The Labour Party is "moving towards" backing a second referendum, John McDonnell has warned, as he indicated that it could become the price their MPs would demand from Theresa May to support her Brexit deal.

    The Shadow Chancellor told the Evening Standard that "we've kept [a second referendum] on the table and we're moving towards that", suggesting that an amendment by MPs Peter Kyle and Phil Wilson calling for the party to back a deal provided there was a public vote on it "could be a solution". The amendment has reportedly been endorsed by shadow Brexit secretary Sir Keir Starmer at an internal party meeting this week.
     
  4. galeforce

    galeforce Garth Crooks

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    SpurMeUp likes this.
  5. r-u-s-x

    r-u-s-x Roman Pavlyuchenko

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    Yes - I was making a comment on the reaction to the statement rather than the validity of the statement, I agree with what you are saying on the later.
     
  6. galeforce

    galeforce Garth Crooks

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    It was equally ridiculous when Javid said it.

    We also shouldn't ignore the distinction between religion and race.
     
  7. r-u-s-x

    r-u-s-x Roman Pavlyuchenko

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    going off on a tangent - Religion and Ethnic group (according to https://www.thejc.com/comment/comment/are-jews-an-ethnic-minority-the-bbc-doesn-t-think-so-1.441775)

    according to that could Muslim also be classed as an Ethnic group? Looking at it briefly why is Sikh / Jew covered but Muslim not?

    Ethnic origins
    The law says an ethnic group is a group who share the same history and cultural traditions. In addition, the group may share one or more of the following things:

    • the same language
    • the same religion
    • the same literature
    • the same geographical origin
    • being an oppressed group
    • being a minority.
    The courts have said that Irish Travellers, Jews, Romany Gypsies and Sikhs are all ethnic groups.
     
  8. Gutter Boy

    Gutter Boy Tim Sherwood

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    I guess ethnic groups are communities from small regions - Tinkers from Ireland, Jews from Israel, Romanies from Romania and Sikhs from Punjab. You can also be part of those groups yet still secular.

    Whereas religions are pan-national and you can't be a secular member of those communities.

    Just guesses
     
  9. Grays_1890

    Grays_1890 Jonathan Woodgate

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    The funny part on that is those that came in for the first wave and qualified for a vote....voted leave to protect their jobs from further percieved dumping aka the poles.
     
  10. r-u-s-x

    r-u-s-x Roman Pavlyuchenko

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    Jews are not from Israel though are they? Most of the UK Jews would have very little link to Israel I would guess (unless you are going back 2000 years), brief look and they are largely from Russia and Europe, the US has more Jewish people than Israel.
     
  11. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Johnny Morrison

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    I'd agree with you on this.

    The government privatised looking after asylum seeksers accomodation. I personally havn't seen any asylum seekers, because Serco the company who run it, put them all in the poorest places in the UK. Where housing is cheapest. The local populations then have a disproportionate number of asylum seekers in their area which is deprived anyway.

    I think this ^ is one factor that's only recently been understood.

    I agree about engagment. And popularism is somethign happening all over the world, and its a desire to refresh and shake up politics. That politicans are not yet thinking outside the box, offering genuine innovatation or changes is part of the problem. Politics is not really different to how it was 50 years ago. There is a lot that could be doneto update politics and government imo.

    That we ended up leaving a progressive trading block, the world's biggest free trade area, that controls pollution and sticks up for workers rights etc. was and still is a gross misunderstanding imo, a way of blaming internal issues we need to address on an outside other.
     
  12. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Johnny Morrison

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    You could say all jews originated from Isreal - or at least that area. European jews however have about 10-15% Russian or eastern european DNA.

    Re. comparing Isreal's acts against say Hammas with Saudis killing of a journalist, are they equal? Maybe if you found an example of Isreal detaining a suspect and then murding them it might be. But even then some might argue that it is part of a conflict situation. Whereas inviting a sorvign journalist to your embassy in a third country and murder one of your own people is another level.
     
  13. r-u-s-x

    r-u-s-x Roman Pavlyuchenko

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    The acts are not equal no, I wasn't trying to indicate they were. The statements however are comparable asking specific peoples to condemn a state that is not their own based upon religion / ethnicity, Hatten was suspended due to "blaming Jews" for Israeli government policy not for criticising Israeli government policy.
     
  14. Grays_1890

    Grays_1890 Jonathan Woodgate

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    Its the same in the US, their Tommy Robinson aka Trump tapped into the generation left behind by the dwindling of industries and no plan B.

    Wrong or right the biggest problem with politics is lack of dialogue with those that matter, people don't want to be talked at but engaged and in this age you won't get away with it, social media is so powerful and full of so much crap you have to be on point every step of the way, you can't allow your voters to believe the lies and thats as much the responsibility of those in power to maintain a status quo as it is those peddling the liews. regardless of class and status now people smell flimflam or at least being brushed off.

    Thats why we ended up with Brexit in my opinion. The legacy of being talked to and the promise of a better future for general election votes that ended up with no outcome.

    Brexit was probably the frustration of the unheard voice for 30/40 years
     
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  15. r-u-s-x

    r-u-s-x Roman Pavlyuchenko

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    Largely agree but I would add that the EU has been an easy spacegoat for failure for both parties over the last 30 years.
     
  16. Craig_J

    Craig_J Niko Kranjcar

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    OK, so I say that there's an issue with Nigerians conning people through e-mail pretending that I've inherited a fudge ton from a distant relative king. I say Nigeria's government should do more to combat these crimes. Am I condemning all black people? Am I condemning all Nigerians? No? If that's the case explain how Israel is any different?

    As for 'agreed not to be racist but insisted on being able to criticise the level of crime committed by black people' - It's completely different. How in anyway is it the same as saying 'the level of crime committed by black people' or 'anti-sexism clause where they insisted women couldn't logic' - both of those would be bad because they comment on a protected characteristic. Excuse me if I'm wrong but I don't see any reason why the state of Israel is representative of all Jewish people? That by criticising Israel and its policies I am therefore criticisng all jews?

    If anything I would be committing antisemitism to assume that a state based on the Jewish Torah is therefore representative of all Jews, that all Jews are the same. Just as much as I would be wrong to assume that the Saudi-Arabian state, the Iranian state, the Taliban, ISIS, or any other state/ quasi-state for that matter is representative of all Muslims.

    If I say I abhor the way that ISIS (when they were still relevant) is going about its business and compare them to crusaders trying to infiltrate a foreign land to impose their religious beliefs on the native population, would I therefore be considered an Islamaphobe? Or would I be commenting on ISIS?

    As for the last part, the Labour party do so because they can see that there is an oppressed people in what is now called Israel, and those people for what ever reason are refereed to as Palestinains. They've seen nearly all their land being forcibly confiscated from them whilst they're thrown into slums (a bit like that 1930s group.. what they called.... the Nasty party or something similar???) and Labour's definition notes that being able to criticise a country that is throwing people into destitute land and ever so rapidly closing in on them and confiscating property that is not only an acceptable thing to do but is a complete moral right.

    In my opinion, the only conflating of Israel and Jews emerges from a definition of antisemtism that infers that Jews and Israel are inseparable - one and the same - two peas in a pod. And to think anything else would be sheer lunacy!
     
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  17. scaramanga

    scaramanga David Ginola Staff Member

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    tl:dr so I'll deal with the first paragraph.

    If the Labour party were in the process of writing a "Don't be racist towards Nigerians" charter it would absolutely be racist to insist on a clause that allowed the party to criticise email scammers. Doing so conflates the two and makes a (racist) link between Nigerians and email scammers.
     
  18. Craig_J

    Craig_J Niko Kranjcar

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    Moreover, I would argue that allowing for a definition of antisemitism in which Israel can be criticised is not only moral and acceptable, but also serves the perfect comprise between concentrating on the oppression of certain groups that confronts us here in the present as opposed to those of 70 years ago...

    Whilst bearing in mind the lessons from the past regarding allowing groups to do to others as they please through fear of offending them....

    Just because the state of Israel, frankly just another country, claims to be representative of the whole Jewish community, which was subjected to oppression 70 years ago, does not give them a free pass to subjugate, destory and oppresss other groups today. To do so would be to lead us into the kind of 'tit-for-tat' age that defined the genocidal period in Rwanda's history.
     
  19. Craig_J

    Craig_J Niko Kranjcar

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    So if it allows for a clause in which we can criticise certain countries for committing any atrocity than that is bad?

    We should instead ignore atrocities and let the world fall to pieces? What is your alternative? Do we allow Israel to commit genocide or abhor it? It seems a simple question to answer IMO.
     
  20. scaramanga

    scaramanga David Ginola Staff Member

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    Yes, of course it's bad. Criticising a disparate race who are spread all over the world for the actions of a country that they may have never even visited is absolutely wrong.
     
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  21. Craig_J

    Craig_J Niko Kranjcar

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    Lets change your post too:

    "I should also add that if the Labour party were in the process of writing a "Don't be racist to Jews" charter it would be absolutely racist to insist on a clause that allowed the party to criticise the state of Israel. Doing so conflates the two and makes a (racist) link between Jewish people and the state of Israel."

    That's ironic seeing as that relies upon an individual to interpret the state of Israel as one and the same to make a link.

    You must remember it is not Labour making the link in the first instance. It is in response to the fact the traditional definition does not allow for ANY criticism of Israel with regards to race or ethnic cleansing - Meaning if tomorrow Israel rounded up six million Palestinians and put them through the gaschambers - it would be considered anti-semitic to compare that to the Nazis or criticse that as a 'racist endeavour'.

    What an absolutely ludicrous fascist world we live in when we can't criticise countries for damaging international relations.
     

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