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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

Discussion in 'Classic Threads' started by DubaiSpur, 27 May 2014.

  1. Finney Is Back

    Finney Is Back Dean Richards

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    Arsenal have that Guendouzi fella and the Uraguayan as well as Xhaka. While none are exactly Makalele they are all currently better than broken Dier and very broken Wanyama in that all of them can actually run and make a tackle. I think Liverpool got reasonably lucky with injuries last season, that luck may or may not continue into this season. Unfortunately we haven't been as lucky with injuries and that coupled with a bunch of players not wanting to be here has actually given us a rather small squad to work with with a couple of glaring holes in it.
     
    Last edited: 18 Oct 2019
  2. Finney Is Back

    Finney Is Back Dean Richards

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    IF he got us 4th..... He got Man Utd 6th in his first season there. Having taken over a team that finished 5th the previous season. He also got to have the biggest wage bill in the league and spend £150 million net.

    If you think any manager consistently getting a team with the 6th biggest wage bill and 10th biggest transfer budget into the top 4 isn't overachieving then you're right.... we're never going to agree. I have asked several times for somebody to point out a manager in any of the top European leagues who has managed to do this. I suspect an example doesn't exist but am happy to be proved wrong (and happy for us to bring that man in if so).

    If Mourinho came in and got us 4 top 4 finishes on the spin with the 6th biggest budget and GHod knows how low transfer budget he would absolutely be overachieving.
     
  3. Finney Is Back

    Finney Is Back Dean Richards

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    You wouldn't admit when you'd been proven wrong anyway! ;)
     
  4. harr1984

    harr1984 Pat van den Hauwe

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    You're missing the point. As I said previously, he did have us overachieving - we never used to have a squad worthy of top 4. For the past couple of seasons we have. We are no longer over achieving, and you are back to going on about the wage bill again - something which is more reflective of the way Levy runs the club. Our top players could be earning wayyyy more elsewhere, its not reflective of their ability. This is just going round in circles, which is why its pointless debating as I already said....
     
  5. Finney Is Back

    Finney Is Back Dean Richards

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    Especially with two keepers! Shall we have Vorm or Gazzaniga as rush goalie ;)
     
    galeforce likes this.
  6. Raziel

    Raziel Nick Barmby

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    Mate, you and I usually aren't too far off in opinions, but I disagree here

    - Poch was a great manager, and specifically he was a great manager in a club that had ambition to be top 4 and compete for titles.
    - He was a great manager in taking a very young squad, making them fit, giving them a system, improving primarily the FBs and incorporating Dele.
    - Average age of that squad was ~22 or so.

    Poch has not shown himself to be a great manager when
    - The requirement is to be top 4 and win things
    - The squad is established professionals at the prime of their career
    - Getting truly exceptional players to push on (Dele, Eriksen, Lamela)
    - Average age of the squad is ~27 or so?

    I am completely, completely confused by the absolute acceptance that "the players are jaded/tired/unmotivated due to time, Poch (his job) is unable to motivate them anymore, so lets replace/rebuild"

    This squad does NOT need a rebuild, and honestly if Poch believes that, he should fudging go ..

    For next season as example
    GK situation -> fine as long as Hugo recovers
    CB's -> Jan +1 of Foyth/Sanchez/Tangaga/Dier, Toby out, potentially a new CB here (1 player)
    FBs -> RB required, Davies +1 at LB, Rose out (1 player)
    CM -> Sessegnon, Lamela, Winks, Lo Celso, Dele, N'dombele, Lucas, Sissoko, Eriksen out, either a DM or another creative depending on style (1 player)
    Strikers -> Kane, Son, Troy, no one out, nothing needed

    At most 3 players, maybe 4 if you want to add another attacking/defensive player
    - Fernandes and Dybala already identified and prices apparently were agreed
    - So as little as 2 players to find/buy

    Poch has no rights .. I don't have a right to have a brick year because I've given my company 17 exceptional years, it just doesn't work that way.

    Again, is he really an exceptional manager or was he an exceptional manager for that moment, for that squad, for this club at that particular stage of the journey?

    The argument most people have re drop players, formation, whatever is "what is he doing to change the form?" (19 losses in 41 games), seems to me to be the same, same lineups (with occasional nonsense adjustment of 1 player), same fudging diamond, same asking FBS that are not good enough to somehow be Rose/Walker of 3 seasons ago. If he is playing Eriksen because we are more worried about his sale value (with less than 12 months on contract) than results, again he should fudging go …


    Levy is the success of Spurs, not Poch, Poch is just another step in a long line of progress from the early missteps -> BMJ -> Harry -> Poch and at every step I've heard when tis manager leaves it's going to be a disaster and we will lose all the progress .. really? 18+ years now of almost constant upward trajectory in results, league placement, income, player quality, almost any measure of success on or of field with exception of that very last step (trophies)

    As I said mate, respect your opinion but really, the keep Poch argument seems to down to

    - He will turn it around because he was good 2 years ago
    - He's been a great manager for us (effectively the same point as above)

    The reality

    - Club is on a miserable run of form for 10 months
    - We still have something to salvage this season (PL, CL and FA Cup)
    - We can't refresh squad until January, at which stage the above point will no longer likely be relevant
    - This should be an easy season (United, Chelsea & Scum are not at their best)

    History only shows this ending one way, and the logical answer with two of the best managers in world football available is to not wait for the inevitable.

    - What score do we have to lose the CL and Pool matches by to change people's mind?
     
    Last edited: 18 Oct 2019
  7. billyiddo

    billyiddo Les Howe Staff Member

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    Eriksen our main creative outlet is leaving, our CB pairing of the last 4 years is leaving, we have no defensive midfield to speak of and our full backs aren't any good - that all needs fixing and that is a rebuild.

    We haven't improved the first team in the transfer market since the summer of 15/16 when we signed Son and Alderweireld, if you can't see that that might cause some problems 4 years down the line then that's on you really
     
    Last edited: 18 Oct 2019
  8. Grays_1890

    Grays_1890 Jermaine Jenas

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    Spot on and as much as some is Poch fault his involvement ends at the negotiation table so is not at fault for players not leaving due to Levy wanting too much for example.

    Hence my earlier post when people pull the "manage the squad" line
     
    thfcsteff likes this.
  9. Raziel

    Raziel Nick Barmby

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    How we got here is not important, its an excuse and that's the problem, we have and continue to give the squad an excuse. I still think

    - Hugo, Gazza, Jan, Sanchez, Tangaga, Foyth, Dier, Davies, Winks, Sissoko, N'dombele, Sessegnon, Dele, Lucas, Lo Celso, Lamela, Son, Kane, Troy can be your base

    Even if as everyone thinks for whatever reason we got rid of Toby, Aurier, KWP, Rose, Eriksen, Wanyama all at once, you still have a 19 man squad that again if you added 1 CB, 2 FBs and 1 DM it is not some crazy overhaul, not some "rebuild"
     
  10. Finney Is Back

    Finney Is Back Dean Richards

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    Last season we didn't bring in a single player and had virtually our whole first team playing right to the end of the World Cup and then ended up with a bunch of injuries early on and then a bunch of fatigued players later on. Getting 4th and to the CL final was a huge achievement in light of the constraints.

    If it's so easy to run a club paying much lower wages than your rivals then why doesn't every other club in the World do the same thing? Do you not accept that in every big European League (and probably the smaller ones as well - I haven't checked). The clubs at the top of the league are the clubs with the biggest wage and transfer budgets? Do you not accept that therefore it is likely that having a bigger budget makes it more likely that you will be at the top end of the table?

    If you feel it is pointless debating with somebody who holds a different view point than you do then feel free to stop, although I always thought the whole point of debating was to discuss things with somebody who has a different view point?
     
  11. Finney Is Back

    Finney Is Back Dean Richards

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    That is still only 19 players. Of those 19 players....
    Tananga and Troy are very much youngsters still (although not sure why you missed Skipp here? He is further ahead than either of those IMO). IMO all three of these players should be away from the club on loan anyway. Otherwise we risk them stagnating via getting so few minutes like KWP has. So in reality we're now down to only 16 payers.

    Hugo is injured. That's 15.
    Lo Celso is injured. That's 14.
    Sessegnon is injured. That's 13.
    Additionally Dier has been injured and having come back looks like he might have gone the way of Wanyama. I'm also not sure that Foyth shown anything at Spurs to indicate he is ready for first team football?

    Anyway even if we count Dier and Foyth that is still only 13 players which is actually a very, very small selection pool indeed.

    There's also the issue that in addition to the players that want out/Poch wants out you list above Jan is also now in his last season at Spurs. It is never a good idea to let players get into the final season of their contract. Why has Levy not got an extension agreed yet? At what point will Vertonghen start to play like he is protecting himself in light of only having 8 more months salary left?

    Having as many as 6 players (or 7 with Vertonghen) all to be on the way out of the club at the same time is actually a huge rebuild. Especially when 5 of them have played a big part in the team and another one of them became defacto first choice in a position due to having already sold the player previously playing ahead of him.
     
  12. lurker of old

    lurker of old Milenko Acimovic

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    19 losses in 41 games
    Crumbs, is our form really that bad, lose tomorrow and all this argument becomes academic, he surely has to go.....
     
  13. Yermiyahu

    Yermiyahu Sebastien Bassong

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    Everybody knows this is nowhere.
    And be replaced by whom exactly?
     
    Robspur12 likes this.
  14. MKSpur

    MKSpur Young-Pyo Lee

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    Someone with a 59.1 win percentage...
    C0D588DD-8F14-481C-A53B-4230BBFDA5D7.jpeg
     
  15. Raziel

    Raziel Nick Barmby

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    Yep, it's on par for about 14th in the table .. (for more games than a full season)
     
  16. thfcsteff

    thfcsteff Barry Daines Staff Member

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    Now that the amazon news has officially broken, can I ask anyone here if they GENUINELY believe it just came about in the last couple of months? Yeah. Right. These things are discussed way way in advance. Let me present a scenario (for the purposes of this post quite obviously conjecture and not an inch more). Imagine how you'd feel, as a old manager who puts a high premium on spirit, vibe, community and discretion, if it was suggested that your workplace be the focus of 24 hour intrusion by a camera crew? Imagine if you said, "Hmmm, I'd really not want that thank you." And imagine if you were ignored. Worse still, imagine you came into work and were simply told this was happening, that your workspace was going to be shared by a camera crew, line editors, editors, lighting people, sound people, at least a half dozen extra people, plus some nifty small unobtrusive cameras that would remain on. It might put a cat among the pigeons.

    Somewhere, I think he will always pay for the book. It possibly took away any leverage he might've had in any potential "keeping it under the table" stakes, as it was not a wise project to engage in. But regardless, IF ANY of this happened when raised as a project in the last 8-10 months (or whatever window), then it would not have helped anything.

    I have worked, and still do work, with this sort of intense camera scrutiny around me (fortunately there are many bigger fish to be seen then little old me). I can tell you, when it first enters your world, the effect is enormous, and it takes a long time to even start adjusting.
     
    glasgowspur likes this.
  17. SteveAWOL

    SteveAWOL Jimmy Neighbour

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  18. Legohamster

    Legohamster Terry Venables

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    First thing I thought after I heard about this was I bet the manager isn’t happy, but he hasn’t a leg to stand on after the book.
     
  19. Legohamster

    Legohamster Terry Venables

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    First thing I thought after I heard about this was I bet the manager isn’t happy, but he hasn’t a leg to stand on after the book.
     
  20. Legohamster

    Legohamster Terry Venables

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    Except he has said the opposite 2 weeks ago and Levy said he has players he doesn’t want here 3 days ago.

    If they are as bad as being made out, there is no need to protect them.
     

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