Climate Change

[scaramanga]

Is it still worth buying a petrol car if everything is heading towards electric? Is everyone just leasing now instead or are new car sales still at the same levels they have always been?
On a similar thought, will there be a point when every model of car is sold in both versions? It seems like currently all the manufacturers have made a deal with each other to all have just one hybrid/electric car available in order to look like they are all doing something. I wonder if any one of them would be brave enough to convert completely, and if they did would it even benefit them once the others all have the same or better technology anyway.

It's probably another 10 years until electric cars can be all that petrol cars can.

Unless you're looking at something like the McLarens that use electric power to double down on the normal power they have.

 

[Rorschach]

Is it still worth buying a petrol car if everything is heading towards electric? Is everyone just leasing now instead or are new car sales still at the same levels they have always been?
On a similar thought, will there be a point when every model of car is sold in both versions? It seems like currently all the manufacturers have made a deal with each other to all have just one hybrid/electric car available in order to look like they are all doing something. I wonder if any one of them would be brave enough to convert completely, and if they did would it even benefit them once the others all have the same or better technology anyway.

It is all heading this way. In 10 years there will be over 100mil electric vehicles on the road. I wouldn't buy another petrol car again.

 

[scaramanga]

It is all heading this way. In 10 years there will be over 100mil electric vehicles on the road. I wouldn't buy another petrol car again.

I drove an I Pace for the second time recently and they're still not quite there.

Electric cars are still too heavy, the weight's all in the wrong place, needing four wheel drive to get the power is simply wrong in every way, the computer interference is way too overbearing and can't be turned off like on a proper car.

The acceleration is great, but nothing a V8 can't achieve and is obviously far less enjoyable. The interior is good, finally someone has realised that drivers want the inside of their cars to look like cars, not an iPad.

I suspect I'll get an electric car once all the automated driving stuff is sorted out, but all the time I'm driving it I'll stick with real cars.

 

[Rorschach]

I drove an I Pace for the second time recently and they're still not quite there.

Electric cars are still too heavy, the weight's all in the wrong place, needing four wheel drive to get the power is simply wrong in every way, the computer interference is way too overbearing and can't be turned off like on a proper car.

The acceleration is great, but nothing a V8 can't achieve and is obviously far less enjoyable. The interior is good, finally someone has realised that drivers want the inside of their cars to look like cars, not an iPad.

I suspect I'll get an electric car once all the automated driving stuff is sorted out, but all the time I'm driving it I'll stick with real cars.

Twice? You big hippy.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Also the issue with charging. On a positive it looks like car battery charging times are coming down rapidly, with a 5% to 70% charge taking not much more time than it takes to have a wazz and a coffee. But there are nowhere near enough chargers for mass electric vehicle uptake yet. And what do you do in cities and with people who live in flats? Will London streets be lined with chargers. I somehow doubt it.

It is nice that the future is here now. But its a future that won't work for everyone. There is more invention to come...

 

[scaramanga]

Also the issue with charging. On a positive it looks like car battery charging times are coming down rapidly, with a 5% to 70% charge taking not much more time than it takes to have a wazz and a coffee. But there are nowhere near enough chargers for mass electric vehicle uptake yet. And what do you do in cities and with people who live in flats? Will London streets be lined with chargers. I somehow doubt it.

It is nice that the future is here now. But its a future that won't work for everyone. There is more invention to come...

Wait until you find out what happens to charging times when a station is busy.......

 

[Lemonade Money]

Surely keeping the existing car stock running is the most sustainable? What's the equivalent fossil fuel use compared to the embodied energy in a new electric car? Let alone charging infrastructure. Just put a tax on fuel so it's only for the rich.

 

[Rorschach]

Also the issue with charging. On a positive it looks like car battery charging times are coming down rapidly, with a 5% to 70% charge taking not much more time than it takes to have a wazz and a coffee. But there are nowhere near enough chargers for mass electric vehicle uptake yet. And what do you do in cities and with people who live in flats? Will London streets be lined with chargers. I somehow doubt it.

It is nice that the future is here now. But its a future that won't work for everyone. There is more invention to come...

No there are certainly not enough public chargers now but these really are only for use in a pinch, and with better batteries they will be required less and less. 99% of charging will happen at home and it will be a rarity that you will need to use a public charger. People in flats if they have a parking spot can get a charger installed. Charging infrastructure is very easy to install. I'm sure that this won't work for everyone but eventually it will be no more hassle than for petrol cars. So yes there needs to be chargers in all filling stations, super markets car parks, on road chargers (though not many I would think), chargers in parking lots, etc. and there is money to be made in all of this.

However, I would say the bigger challenge is to get folks out of cars all together and into public transport and onto bikes (@scaramanga incoming in 5...4...3...2...1).

 

[scaramanga]

No there are certainly not enough public chargers now but these really are only for use in a pinch, and with better batteries they will be required less and less. 99% of charging will happen at home and it will be a rarity that you will need to use a public charger. People in flats if they have a parking spot can get a charger installed. Charging infrastructure is very easy to install. I'm sure that this won't work for everyone but eventually it will be no more hassle than for petrol cars. So yes there needs to be chargers in all filling stations, super markets car parks, on road chargers (though not many I would think), chargers in parking lots, etc. and there is money to be made in all of this.

However, I would say the bigger challenge is to get folks out of cars all together and into public transport and onto bikes (@scaramanga incoming in 5...4...3...2...1).

I'll be very happy if we can get everyone onto public transport. The more people on public transport, the fewer that are in my way on the road.

 

[SpurMeUp]

No there are certainly not enough public chargers now but these really are only for use in a pinch, and with better batteries they will be required less and less. 99% of charging will happen at home and it will be a rarity that you will need to use a public charger. People in flats if they have a parking spot can get a charger installed. Charging infrastructure is very easy to install. I'm sure that this won't work for everyone but eventually it will be no more hassle than for petrol cars. So yes there needs to be chargers in all filling stations, super markets car parks, on road chargers (though not many I would think), chargers in parking lots, etc. and there is money to be made in all of this.

However, I would say the bigger challenge is to get folks out of cars all together and into public transport and onto bikes (@scaramanga incoming in 5...4...3...2...1).

Investment in transport, bike lanes, and car impediments would help. Cycling is a far nicer way to move around London if you can use back streets. But on the main roads, it's not nice. I cycle to my office each day but use a cycle route most of the way. If there were more routes that kept me off the polluted busy roads I'd cycle more. It's quicker than driving. Amsterdam is pretty awesome on a bike. Probably because youre stoned half the time

 

[Rorschach]

Surely keeping the existing car stock running is the most sustainable? What's the equivalent fossil fuel use compared to the embodied energy in a new electric car? Let alone charging infrastructure. Just put a tax on fuel so it's only for the rich.

The CO2 cost of an electric car compared to a petrol equivalent is about 40% lower over it's lifecycle on average. The extra CO2 used in the production of an electric vehicle will however decrease as more renewables feed into the grid. Charging infrastructure is very easy to install and would have a negligible impact on C02.

The tax point is good one and almost certainly the way things will go. Petrol heads will end up paying high carbon taxes, and I imagine these will increase sharply over time. I predict having a petrol car will become a niche market for the rich.

 

[Lemonade Money]

The CO2 cost of an electric car compared to a petrol equivalent is about 40% lower over it's lifecycle on average. The extra CO2 used in the production of an electric vehicle will however decrease as more renewables feed into the grid. Charging infrastructure is very easy to install and would have a negligible impact on C02.

The tax point is good one and almost certainly the way things will go. Petrol heads will end up paying high carbon taxes, and I imagine these will increase sharply over time. I predict having a petrol car will become a niche market for the rich.

Yes but, you are throwing away a perfectly good car (land fill) for an electric one. If it's not land fill, it's still costing the environment. There may not even be any payback, especially when that electric car is binned for a newer more efficient one in the future.
Live and work in the same place. Ride a bike. Don't throw things away. Buying an electric car doesn't make you environmentally friendly.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

No there are certainly not enough public chargers now but these really are only for use in a pinch, and with better batteries they will be required less and less. 99% of charging will happen at home and it will be a rarity that you will need to use a public charger. People in flats if they have a parking spot can get a charger installed. Charging infrastructure is very easy to install. I'm sure that this won't work for everyone but eventually it will be no more hassle than for petrol cars. So yes there needs to be chargers in all filling stations, super markets car parks, on road chargers (though not many I would think), chargers in parking lots, etc. and there is money to be made in all of this.

However, I would say the bigger challenge is to get folks out of cars all together and into public transport and onto bikes (@scaramanga incoming in 5...4...3...2...1).

The difference in charge time is significant between 3 pin plug / home charge station (7kw) and public (50-100kw).

In real terms its something like 21hrs / 9hrs / 1-2hours to a charge. Which still restricts its use, IMO.

From what Ive seen electric cars are absolutely fine for most daily driving, but I think they still really fail when it comes to anything longer distance.

More recent ones have a range of around 250 miles, which is more than enough for most day trips/daily driving. If we had one it would probably need charging once a week and we would have no range anxiety at all.

However, we go on a week away somewhere? Suddenly we have to plan every day around charging opportunities, lunches at service stations while it tops up etc - and the practicality just falls down.

Theres no getting away from the fact I can do far more range in a regular car, exhaust the tank, fill it up completely and be off again in 5 minutes.

Would make so much sense if batteries were standardised and removable. Garages could stock charged units, swap the empty for full, drive away...

At that point there would be absolutely no excuses to not go electric, IMO.

 

[Rorschach]

Yes but, you are throwing away a perfectly good car (land fill) for an electric one. If it's not land fill, it's still costing the environment. There may not even be any payback, especially when that electric car is binned for a newer more efficient one in the future.
Live and work in the same place. Ride a bike. Don't throw things away. Buying an electric car doesn't make you environmentally friendly.

No that's not what I said. Your petrol car can't last forever. I'm not saying scrap it now to buy an electric one. That would be silly. Just make your next car electric. No car is environmentally friendly. Hell even a bike has some production cost, but the relative co2 footprint of an electric car is less than a petrol car over it's lifecycle.

 

[Rorschach]

The difference in charge time is significant between 3 pin plug / home charge station (7kw) and public (50-100kw).

In real terms its something like 21hrs / 9hrs / 1-2hours to a charge. Which still restricts its use, IMO.

From what Ive seen electric cars are absolutely fine for most daily driving, but I think they still really fail when it comes to anything longer distance.

More recent ones have a range of around 250 miles, which is more than enough for most day trips/daily driving. If we had one it would probably need charging once a week and we would have no range anxiety at all.

However, we go on a week away somewhere? Suddenly we have to plan every day around charging opportunities, lunches at service stations while it tops up etc - and the practicality just falls down.

Theres no getting away from the fact I can do far more range in a regular car, exhaust the tank, fill it up completely and be off again in 5 minutes.

Would make so much sense if batteries were standardised and removable. Garages could stock charged units, swap the empty for full, drive away...

At that point there would be absolutely no excuses to not go electric, IMO.

Yes the electric car is good now for run arounds, no long trips really. Overnight say 6-7 hours on single phase (3 pin) is enough to fully charge the Leaf I have. If I had 3-phase feed at home it would be about 4 hours I believe. About 20-25 mins to 80% charge from near zero on a public Chademo charger but I've only needed to do it once. Needless to say different batteries will have different charging times and ranges. They are however, very big and heavy so I doubt they'll ever by swapable.

Anyway that's enough on electric cars. You'll all be driving one eventually. I'm just ahead of the curve .

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Yes the electric car is good now for run arounds, no long trips really. Overnight say 6-7 hours on single phase (3 pin) is enough to fully charge the Leaf I have. If I had 3-phase feed at home it would be about 4 hours I believe. About 20-25 mins to 80% charge from near zero on a public Chademo charger but I've only needed to do it once. Needless to say different batteries will have different charging times and ranges. They are however, very big and heavy so I doubt they'll ever by swapable.

Anyway that's enough on electric cars. You'll all be driving one eventually. I'm just ahead of the curve .

Im not against the idea, as some seem to be rather on principle, I just dont think they are fit for purpose (for me) like a combustion engine is.

I think its interesting just how far electric cars have come in the last decade though, bodes well for the future - where I may well get one myself.

The other thing thats intersting, purely as an aside, is that the mass production is much better now.

The new 208 (and Corsa, same platform) comes as Petrol, Diesel or full electric - and they all have the exact same chassis. The drive train is the only difference. Means they are all being made in the same factory, at the same time. Which means production can be weighted much more easily to demand.

 

[StephenH]

I waiting for a battery BMW 5 Touring
probably cost around £100k+

 

[SpurMeUp]

Yes but, you are throwing away a perfectly good car (land fill) for an electric one. If it's not land fill, it's still costing the environment. There may not even be any payback, especially when that electric car is binned for a newer more efficient one in the future.
Live and work in the same place. Ride a bike. Don't throw things away. Buying an electric car doesn't make you environmentally friendly.

What about electric-powered bikes? Have you been overtaken by a smug fat guy on one yet?

 

[SpurMeUp]

Is there a change in public perception?

Even in this thread, you can see some changes in peoples' approach. As a sample, while most are not rushing out to buy electric, we are now considering it as a possibility. 6 months ago even, it felt more distant. Data out today shows the global car market has stalled (apparently this accounts for more than 1% of global GDP). Some point to China not buying as many cars, but maybe people are just holding out longer with their current car. A change in consumption habits. Like Lemonade says keeping their car longer. And possibly thinking about keeping it for longer so electric cars evolve a bit before they make the change.

Short car firms?

 

[SpurMeUp]

I waiting for a battery BMW 5 Touring
probably cost around £100k+

You can electrify old cars! I think it could be quite cool to do. Prob a lot less than 100k https://www.electricclassiccars.co.uk/