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AVB & Spurs Tactics and Formations discussion thread

Discussion in 'Classic Threads' started by BAE, 18 Jan 2012.

  1. BAE

    BAE Moussa Saib

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    I don't profess to have read Inverting the Pyramid, don't study the Guardian Chalkboards intensively, and just about know what a false number 9 is. However, I think its a good idea to just have a general tactics thread, where some of our resident nerds can endlessly debate the merits of having two DMs, inverted wingers, the wonky etc.


    My first question is regarding tonight's El Classico:
    In the last five or so El Classicos, Real have beaten Barca just once, and that was hardly a comprehensive victory. Tonight, Madrid set up with two DMs in Lass and Pepe, who (despite the cheating) performed very well - breaking up most of Barca's attacks with the remainder dealt with fairly well by the defence.
    However, in terms of attacking threat, the only joy that Madrid had was when Ronaldo was attacking down Dani Alves' wing. When he switched to attacking Barcelona's left hand side, he was nullified.
    Real Madrid had two strikers in Benzema and Higuain who had almost nothing to do the whole game. Surely they would have been better putting another winger/creative player in, instead of Benzema, and trying to attack Barcelona down the wings, where arguably Barca's full backs are excellent going forward, but not so great defensively?

    Anyway, my question is this (before I digress too much) - how the hell do you beat Barcelona??









    I am aware this thread is very FM-ish, but thought it might be interesting
     
  2. yiddo2786

    yiddo2786 Steed Malbranque

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    four four facking two
     
  3. spurspinter1

    spurspinter1 Teemu Tainio

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    If possible with one really tall striker, and one smaller striker.
     
  4. Pandy

    Pandy Ramon Vega

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    There's 2 ways to look at it I suppose, you can either sit deep and be willing to just defend then look to break, as Inter did under Mourinho, or you can try to out-press them and interrupt their passing, like Arsenal did in their fortuitous win at the Emirates last year.

    The problem is you can't press them for 90 minutes because they will eventually get into a passing rhythm and then you end up chasing the game and getting worn out, only by luck can you win playing like this for 90 mins as the scum did. I doubt Barca would have been motivated by playing such minnows either.. There is no way Real will ever play defensively, and Mourinho knows you can only press Barca in bursts, which he has tried to do, but I think because Barca are always fired up to beat them, despite having the second best team in the world and generally the right tactics it is nearly impossible for Real to win.
     
  5. spasm

    spasm Terry Fenwick

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    man-mark messi. two rows of four defending deep. cut out all space. don't follow the ball.
     
  6. metalgear

    metalgear Steffen Iversen

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    getting the most out of VDV, Modric and Parker

    VDV seems to be dropping deeper and deeper each game. so much so that he no longer seems a threat up front. interesting when we have parker and modric who are supposed to be more defensive, frustrating when we all know that VDV is perhaps the most clinical player in our first eleven.

    So i understand that the idea is for VDV to evade his marker. But if he can't be a threat up front any longer, then the opposition have won the tactical battle. while VDV can play provider, we have other alternatives - especially the wings, and it is a finisher we lack, what we need is a lot more goals for the possession that we have.

    Maybe this could work for a while if other players could score too. But you can't help but think that VDV should score more, Modric should provide more and Parker should be the bedrock on which it would happen.

    My suggested solutions is
    - VDV should start in the hole and progress on to the shoulder of the last man.
    - Modric should start alongside parker but move into the hole
    - Parker keeps on doing what he does, but pass the ball on to VDV or Modric or the wings

    Its a lot more predictable so we'll get a tighter game from the opposition, but I believe that under these tight situations that VDV, Modric and our wingers really thrive to squeeze out that little bit extra - that moment of magic that could turn the game.

    what do you think?
     
  7. Gutter Boy

    Gutter Boy Tim Sherwood

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    I think we need to play a proper 4-2-3-1, rather than this half-way house 4-4-1-1/4-2-3-1; and encourage Lennon and especially Bale to get up to support Ade just as much as Rafa does.

    Then Parker and Modric give us the solid base, Walker and BAE the width, and we have the 3 interchanging AMs supporting Ade. If its an easier opposition Modric can push up closer to the 3.
     
  8. spasm

    spasm Terry Fenwick

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    he drops back on instinct...whilst it is always a boon for our possession, it does seem to impact his goal threat..
     
  9. milo

    milo Vic Buckingham Staff Member

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    I think that we'll see him play a lot closer to Defoe today than he does when he is partnering Ade
     
  10. milo

    milo Vic Buckingham Staff Member

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    That is the last place I want him. We need VdV to get time on the ball.
     
  11. punk_is_back`

    punk_is_back` Ilie Dumitrescu

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    We had more long balls and floated crosses last year so VDV was always looking for the knock down from crouch. With Ade we don't seem to float crosses too much so VDV won't be there to win the knockdowns. Also I think that if we want to dominate possession we should look to keep Rafa and Modric quite near each other to pass our way around the midfield; we can rely on Bale and Lennon to provide the goals from midfield. Obviously we need parker to hold his position and get the ball quickly to Rafa and Modric; so the opposition doesn't press us up field and make the team play deeper. 4-3-3 in an attacking sense is all about how quickly you can shift defence into attack and outnumbering the opposition on a counter.
     
  12. Gifter

    Gifter William Gallas

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  13. punk_is_back`

    punk_is_back` Ilie Dumitrescu

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    Unlike some people gifter, I prefer to debate the qualities of players and accept that all players have their positives and negatives. I am not one of the "Haters" or "Fan boys"; merely someone who prefers to use reason and debate to discuss how we can get the best out of this team.
     
  14. Hully

    Hully Tony Parks

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    It's the job we've asked VDV to do while Lennon has been out. His work rate and commitment have been top class.
    Now we have a near full strength side back we'll see him back in there creating space and scoring goals.
    I expect him to get the opener today.
     
  15. milo

    milo Vic Buckingham Staff Member

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    Good point. It is also a bit unrealistic to expect him to switch from right midfield to playing off a striker without any dip in form.
     
  16. Gifter

    Gifter William Gallas

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    That sounds good punk, however the thread you recently started blaming Parker for our drop in form (after he'd just come back from injury and we had one draw!) was not reasoned or logical but based on a determination to bend reality to your own perceptions rather than adjusting your own perceptions to reality. Alas there is no debating with that.

    Anyway, sorry, it was just a quip and today is not the day for negativity, it is the day our whole team galvanise themselves into a real force.
     
  17. metalgear

    metalgear Steffen Iversen

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    even with defoe up front VDV shies away from playing up top. sure he with superior numbers in the midfield, but we are truly lacking striking options (not supply).

    with crouch vdv was high up receiving knockdowns. don't see why he can't do the same with ade receiving the ball back to goal? gives ade someone to play off a 1-2 throught ball , something VDV should be happy to conjure up when given the opportunity.
     
  18. Gilzeantoscore

    Gilzeantoscore Clint Dempsey

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    There is always a tendency to rate players on how things were, rather than on how things are! VDV has been poor for some time now and should be rested. He seems to be trying to play Hollywood football, such as the big shot from thirty yards out and such and has been pretty ineffectual. Personally, I would prefer Ade and Defoe up front.


    Gary.
     
  19. Eriktheviking

    Eriktheviking Sebastien Bassong

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    I wasnt sure where to post my point but here seems as good as any. Yesterday, we looked so much better when Livermore came on. Scotty sat in front of the defence and basically stopped Man City playing, all too often, yesterday, Aguero, Nasri and Alves picked up the ball on the half way line then ran 20/30 yards with it (See first goal) free to do as they pleased. Personally, with two 'stoppers' in the middle we could stop city playing and play our game, attack through width and pace, defoe looked twice the player from that point.

    IMHO, in the bigger matches, we need to drop VDV and play a solid 5 in midfield with scotty doing the dirty work. Modric, Lennon, Bale and Defoe can create and finish against most teams in the league. Yesterday, we didnt contol the game as we were outclassed in midfield, control the midfield and you will control the game.
     
  20. CADD61

    CADD61 Mark Yeates

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    I am a VDV fanboy, he's absolute class and brings so much the team both on and off the pitch. When he's on form I'd much rather Ade up top and the unpredicatability of VDV's game to Defoe's.....in the hole, dropping further back on occassion....and the link up play, creativity and clinical finishing he provides.

    He's an absolute nightmare for opposition players to deal with and for managers to tactically counteract. However, he is not on form and agree he's been ineffecual of late....so I'd also like to see Defoe partner Ade for the next couple of games with VDV bought on as sub. What a game changer a fresh VDV could be coming off the bench against tiring minds and legs.

    But we've seen his hunger and desire demands that he plays the pivotal talisman role in the team, I have question marks on how his ego would react to coming on as sub. Which is a crying shame as I believe this role is best for the short term benefit of the team, but also the quickest route for him regaining his mojo that would quickly demand a starting berth.
     

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