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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

@Finney Is Back - I should say, I didnt watch Watford, but everything Ive read on it sounds much more "Brighton" than pre-Bayern.

Would seem to indicate that the Intl break didnt give a chance for everyone to come back for a clean slate. Which for me begins to sound terminal...

Ill be watching tonight hoping, of course, to see us turn up, fit and focused, and attacking the game with a real plan and solid set up.

Though Id be lying if I said I expected it.
It wasn't as bad as Brighton. However IMO it was worse than anything that came before Brighton. We had no more defensive stability than the games earlier in the season and even less attacking threat.

I'll be there tonight as well and I am always hoping that we are fit, focussed and attacking the game.
 
I think it’s as simple as before and after Bayern, before most of the players were still playing for him despite the bad shape and tactics, Bayern seemed to be the straw that broke the camels back, Sissoko came out after the game with the first comments about the diamond, against Brighton and Watford they looked like a group that have downed tools.
I ask again. If the players aren't happy with the diamond then surely they would down tools when actually being forced to play the diamond instead of waiting for the first game immediately after the diamond has been ditched. Don't you see that it makes no sense?

I haven't noticed any downing of tools since Bayern. On Saturday for example, the players were clearly trying (minus Toby, who IMO hasn't suddenly stopped trying, he simply hasn't been trying all season).
 
I ask again. If the players aren't happy with the diamond then surely they would down tools when actually being forced to play the diamond instead of waiting for the first game immediately after the diamond has been ditched. Don't you see that it makes no sense?

I haven't noticed any downing of tools since Bayern. On Saturday for example, the players were clearly trying (minus Toby, who IMO hasn't suddenly stopped trying, he simply hasn't been trying all season).

Two words.

BAYERN. MUNICH.

Now does that added bit of context add to understanding?

I think the effort has been decidedly worse. Its going through the motions stuff more than actually trying.
 
Lack of context?

13 losses last season in the PL, 7 after February (the last time we lost 13 games in a season was the season that started with Ramos and the famous 2 from 8, 2008 .. a fudging decade ago)
Our overall record for this season is 13 games, 4 wins, 5 draws, 4 losses, over GD of -3 with a 25% win ratio
Last 42 games, 19 losses, a 45% loss ratio

And the best defense is well he made the CL final? I am literally without words, a fudging 25% win ratio and a 45% loss ratio and anyone legitimately believes this guy needs more time?

Not throwing my toys out of the pram .. but I think I'll check out of this thread for a while, because no offense to anyone, but seems like we have more Poch fans than Spurs fans and this no longer is a debate. Facts are met by excuses and some unfounded belief that we will never find a manager better than him ever again despite two proven better managers being freely available right now.
Im with you all the way mate. Too many rose tinted fans on here think hes still the saviour. The guys a notorious bottling loser and the sooner we get rid of him the better. Alas, we wont until its too late and we are relegated.
 
WE PLAYED 4141 AGAINST BRIGHTON !!!!!!!!!!

THE DEPLOYMENT OF NDOMBELE AS ONE OF THE FOUR fudgeD US !!!!!!!!!

AGAINST Saudi Sportswashing Machine WE PLAYED 4231 BUT LACKED THE INTENSITY FROM THE PALACE GAME.
 
Two words.

BAYERN. MUNICH.

Now does that added bit of context add to understanding?

I think the effort has been decidedly worse. Its going through the motions stuff more than actually trying.

You can't say that they are knackered playing the Diamond and downed tools, it's one or the other.
They shouldn't be knackered if they've downed tools.
Some have mentally checked out, not the same as downing tools imv.
I hope we don't see Toby or Eriksen tonight.
 
It wasn't as bad as Brighton. However IMO it was worse than anything that came before Brighton. We had no more defensive stability than the games earlier in the season and even less attacking threat.

I'll be there tonight as well and I am always hoping that we are fit, focussed and attacking the game.
Enjoy tonight. I sincerely mean that. Not that you will. I have not bought any CL games and have sold all of my games up until Chelsea. Actually want to book other plans so that I dont have to watch this GHod awful team. Not even going to bother checking the results tonight. I already know we will lose at least 3-1.

This is actually worse than under Sherwood, Ramos, Pleat, Hoddle, even Gross' reign. The fact we are still letting this idiot be in charge is completely unlike Levy. Chris Hughton has a better win ratio.

I am hoping for a complete embarrassment tonight so that Poch finally gets what he has deserved for a year, and I know I wont be wrong. There is no way we will even get a draw tonight.
 
You can't say that they are knackered playing the Diamond and downed tools, it's one or the other.
They shouldn't be knackered if they've downed tools.
Some have mentally checked out, not the same as downing tools imv.
I hope we don't see Toby or Eriksen tonight.

So you cant be run into the ground on Tuesday, and decide to just not put in any particular effort Saturday?

On Bayern, Sissoko:
"We get tired too quickly physically when we play with a diamond midfield,"
Coming from probably our fittest player. This is a guy with stamina for days.

On Bayern, Lloris, and Pochettino:
‘I feel really bad for the fans mainly because we gave up a little bit too easily and the score was even worse,’

“The feeling at the end when we conceded the three goals – it was like the team was tired and gave up a little bit,”

They get knackared when set up in a formation that doesnt work for them.

They give up when that formation, and the leadership/lack of, leads them to embarrassing and unnecessary defeats.

Its not one of the other at all.
 
I ask again. If the players aren't happy with the diamond then surely they would down tools when actually being forced to play the diamond instead of waiting for the first game immediately after the diamond has been ditched. Don't you see that it makes no sense?

I haven't noticed any downing of tools since Bayern. On Saturday for example, the players were clearly trying (minus Toby, who IMO hasn't suddenly stopped trying, he simply hasn't been trying all season).

You can't say that they are knackered playing the Diamond and downed tools, it's one or the other.
They shouldn't be knackered if they've downed tools.
Some have mentally checked out, not the same as downing tools imv.
I hope we don't see Toby or Eriksen tonight.

Before the Bayern game as soon as the lineups were announced there were plenty on here looking on in horror and predicting what was going to happen playing a diamond against Bayern, there were well respected pundits including Hoddle who was ripping the shape to shreds at 0-0, a day or two after the game Sissoko comes out with his quotes about the diamond did you really think that was a coincidence?

That game imo broke them, any trust that was left in Pochettino went with it.
 
It is getting nervous having to check google every time to see if Pochettino is still the manager at Spurs ! I think this is one of the reason affecting the players as well, not knowing the future of the manager. The moment Pochettino gave the interview before the CL final last season where he said he might leave if we win the CL, the players must have started questioning their future as well. It was really stupid of Pochettino to say like that before the CL final.
 
So you cant be run into the ground on Tuesday, and decide to just not put in any particular effort Saturday?

On Bayern, Sissoko:
"We get tired too quickly physically when we play with a diamond midfield,"
Coming from probably our fittest player. This is a guy with stamina for days.

On Bayern, Lloris, and Pochettino:
‘I feel really bad for the fans mainly because we gave up a little bit too easily and the score was even worse,’

“The feeling at the end when we conceded the three goals – it was like the team was tired and gave up a little bit,”

They get knackared when set up in a formation that doesnt work for them.

They give up when that formation, and the leadership/lack of, leads them to embarrassing and unnecessary defeats.

Its not one of the other at all.

You've not been talking about one game, you've saying this since before the bayern game.
 
“The rumours happen in any club when you don’t win,” said Pochettino. “That doesn’t mean they are true and you need to care or pay attention about what has happened. But I understand it’s the business.

“I am 47, look, why do you think I don’t have white hair? Because I don’t pay attention to any of this. I only pay attention to what we need to do to improve our performance. And if we don’t improve our performance, what is going to be the result? Always the same in football. You are thinking the same as me.”


Now we know the mans a liar. He has been on the Just For Men quite blatantly!
 
Saying what exactly?
Good point actually, because a couple of weeks ago it was he's lost the dressing room, then he wants out, now it's fluctuating between their knackered or they've downed tools.
Which one is it?
The real point is none of us know, it's all pure speculation with each of us trying to fit it into our theories/hopes/frustration.
At the end of the day we all want what's best for the club, there is obviously something or someone not working correctly.
I personally don't care who it is if they are removed and we move on, I only want to make sure it's the right person (or persons) that is removed.
I don't think any of us is different in that BTW.
 
“The rumours happen in any club when you don’t win,” said Pochettino. “That doesn’t mean they are true and you need to care or pay attention about what has happened. But I understand it’s the business.

“I am 47, look, why do you think I don’t have white hair? Because I don’t pay attention to any of this. I only pay attention to what we need to do to improve our performance. And if we don’t improve our performance, what is going to be the result? Always the same in football. You are thinking the same as me.”


Now we know the mans a liar. He has been on the Just For Men quite blatantly!


Beat me too it.
 
“The rumours happen in any club when you don’t win,” said Pochettino. “That doesn’t mean they are true and you need to care or pay attention about what has happened. But I understand it’s the business.

“I am 47, look, why do you think I don’t have white hair? Because I don’t pay attention to any of this. I only pay attention to what we need to do to improve our performance. And if we don’t improve our performance, what is going to be the result? Always the same in football. You are thinking the same as me.”


Now we know the mans a liar. He has been on the Just For Men quite blatantly!

It’s not like we have not all seen his almost white beard when he can’t be bothered to shave is it.
 
Good point actually, because a couple of weeks ago it was he's lost the dressing room, then he wants out, now it's fluctuating between their knackered or they've downed tools.
Which one is it?
The real point is none of us know, it's all pure speculation with each of us trying to fit it into our theories/hopes/frustration.
At the end of the day we all want what's best for the club, there is obviously something or someone not working correctly.
I personally don't care who it is if they are removed and we move on, I only want to make sure it's the right person (or persons) that is removed.
I don't think any of us is different in that BTW.

I suspect you are either mis reading me, or confusing me with someone else.

Ive been saying the whole time that Poch has dropped the ball, and is looking increasingly less like he will pick it up.

Ive been saying he is losing the players because of it.

And Ive said I think Bayern was the last straw. Since then I think they just arent playing for him.

They were clearly knackared in the Bayern game, and my only real mention of it was to counter Finneys insistence the diamond was working. How can it be a successful set up if its only good for maybe a half a match? Specific comment around a specific match/situation.

You are right, none of us know anything for sure. All we can do is look at the signs and form an opinion.

I think what I am saying tracks very well to what we are seeing.

And we do all want whats best for the club. Of course we do. I have a bad feeling about tonight - but if we absolutely smash RSB Im going to be over the moon. Id love to see Poch get right on it again, get everything working properly, and get this team playing to its potential.

The thing is, I dont look at the situation and forsee that. I think we are currently in the end game of POchs tenure, sadly. Time will tell on that one, obviously.

Kind of doesnt matter who is at fault, the situation as it is only really goes one way...
 
Mate, seemingly we don't communicate well and you seem quite aggravated with me (the praise was legitimate, up to you how you want to take it), so maybe we just let it go.

I generally don't think I misunderstood you, it's more about how you apply principles

- But to be clear, your wife and your marriage are the same thing, one doesn't exist without the other, call it relationship goals, happiness, whatever one requires the other.
- There is no such link between Poch and Spurs, hence my call out, Poch goes tomorrow, Spurs remains ..
- And on top of that, you don't pay people in your life to participate, hence you owe them some empathy ..

but to separate the personal and use the professional example

- If I had a good boss who suddenly became poor, my response would depend on the impact he is having. If he was impacting my ability to make money, pay my bills, then yes I want him out (and I might still like him as a person)
- Poch is paid for results, he is not delivering and it's impacting the club, players and fans ..

You may choose to leave your life around less "goal oriented" objectives and if that works for you, well done. But fundamentally that is not how being the manager of a top 4 PL club with any level of ambition operates.

So again, no aggravation with you, no aggravation with Poch, just a very simple view that he is failing in a position that is measured by results and has no place for like/empathy/etc.

I would say there is another angle we can take to this which would allow us to think through the ‘he currently isn’t performing’ point in a bit more detail. Because that’s the lack of context I think is maddening. It suggests that once results turn, the Manager must be under performing, he should not be trusted to get it back, it never will turn back, and that’s the end of it. It suggests there is nothing else that could possibly effect results.

Since you like the business metaphors, I will say that I work in start up tech / venture capital. In these companies, the people that are right for the 0-100 person journey are not the same ones that are right for 100-500, 500-1500 etc. Sometimes you need to change the leadership team. Sometimes though the leadership team, particularly the founders, are super adaptable and able to go through all of the stages and continue to succeed. It is also worth saying that sometimes things may happen to companies as they try and get to the next stage - competitors come out with new products, a new regulation changes the game, they soon run out of runway and can’t figure the unit economics out quickly enough - that mean that it’s sometimes a bloody struggle to get to the next milestone. Sometimes the Founder is the right one but external circumstances have meant that the journey to getting where they need to was a bloody struggle, with lots of ups and downs. Sometimes you need to get the Founder out, no doubt, but actually given the amount of problems these companies face on the road to ultimate success, the proportion of time you trust in the guy to figure it out is probably much bigger than the proportion of time you cut him loose.

It feels like you are drawing on your experience from maybe big corporate land where things are more established, if things go wrong, it’s fine, because the company will continue and under performance can be punished. But I’d say if there is any club that resembles a start up, one that is ‘on a journey’ and changing itself from plucky underdog to established player, it is us. We are going to face external pressures. We are going to go through tough periods where things don’t go our way and we need to stay the course.

I will ask - if we were able to shift the players that Poch wanted to shift, when he wanted to shift them, do you think we would be better off right now? I think we absolutely would, but it doesn’t always go our way. Which means we will have down periods, where we have to fight through less than ideal circumstances to get on the good page again. I think we can do it, but that to me is the obvious reason for our failing. We are levelling our club up from one standing to another. We are doing it without a bottomless pit of money. We just built a stadium. To do all of that is bloody difficult. To do all of that, while refreshing the squad, and doing it all without any down periods while we get to where we need to be, I’d say is nigh on impossible.

This idea that we is ‘underperforming’ and that ‘this only ends one way’ I just don’t agree with. He goes if he loses the trust of the players that are currently being paid really well and will be here long term. As long as they are inside, and there are enough people at the club who believe, he stays. He has earned the opportunity to get us back on the good track. In start up land, you rely on loyalty to an extent to see you through the bad times and enjoy the good as a family. Because sometimes you have nothing else. But great things often happen, billion dollar companies are formed when you make it through the dark times.
 
I suspect you are either mis reading me, or confusing me with someone else.

Ive been saying the whole time that Poch has dropped the ball, and is looking increasingly less like he will pick it up.

Ive been saying he is losing the players because of it.

And Ive said I think Bayern was the last straw. Since then I think they just arent playing for him.

They were clearly knackared in the Bayern game, and my only real mention of it was to counter Finneys insistence the diamond was working. How can it be a successful set up if its only good for maybe a half a match? Specific comment around a specific match/situation.

You are right, none of us know anything for sure. All we can do is look at the signs and form an opinion.

I think what I am saying tracks very well to what we are seeing.

And we do all want whats best for the club. Of course we do. I have a bad feeling about tonight - but if we absolutely smash RSB Im going to be over the moon. Id love to see Poch get right on it again, get everything working properly, and get this team playing to its potential.

The thing is, I dont look at the situation and forsee that. I think we are currently in the end game of POchs tenure, sadly. Time will tell on that one, obviously.

Kind of doesnt matter who is at fault, the situation as it is only really goes one way...

You are an absolute classic for taking an isolated incident and using it to make what looks to be a well thought out broader point which may not actually mean what you say at all.

That players were knackered after running hard and pressing hard in a first half is not a unique situation based on us playing a diamond in one match. Many games the world over are played on the idea that teams decide to press hard at certain points, knowing they will have to sag back at others to compensate. Liverpool’s entire strategy before last season was based on getting into a good first half lead so that they could relax in the second. Last season they decided to pick their moments more. But when they were pressing hard it meant that if they didn’t capitalise on the chances they created, they would be vulnerable further down the line in the match.

Against Bayern we simply didn’t capitalise on the chances we created. We’ve then taken gut punch after gut punch the last few games - the VAR at Leceister, the two great goals Bayern score at the end of a half, the Lloris injury, I think it is more likely this that has effected the players’ confidence, because they are seeing that no matter what they do, it isn’t enough. It’s something to work through. But the idea that they were ‘knackered’ after the first half vs Bayern is a willfull misinterpretation of a very common strategy.
 
You are an absolute classic for taking an isolated incident and using it to make what looks to be a well thought out broader point which may not actually mean what you say at all.

That players were knackered after running hard and pressing hard in a first half is not a unique situation based on us playing a diamond in one match. Many games the world over are played on the idea that teams decide to press hard at certain points, knowing they will have to sag back at others to compensate. Liverpool’s entire strategy before last season was based on getting into a good first half lead so that they could relax in the second. Last season they decided to pick their moments more. But when they were pressing hard it meant that if they didn’t capitalise on the chances they created, they would be vulnerable further down the line in the match.

Against Bayern we simply didn’t capitalise on the chances we created. We’ve then taken gut punch after gut punch the last few games - the VAR at Leceister, the two great goals Bayern score at the end of a half, the Lloris injury, I think it is more likely this that has effected the players’ confidence, because they are seeing that no matter what they do, it isn’t enough. It’s something to work through. But the idea that they were ‘knackered’ after the first half vs Bayern is a willfull misinterpretation of a very common strategy.

Ill be blunt, I have literally no interest in a biblical exchange that results in the usual deflection and distraction from you, Id really rather just agree to disagree and pass on the whole thing.
 
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