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Victimpool thread

Discussion in 'General Football' started by southstand1882, 28 Jan 2012.

  1. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Ian Walker

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    I actually think VVD is just decent. Not amazing, not the second coming, and generally really quite over rated.

    Decent, no more. Though when you look at the quality they had before him I can see why some would get carried away with the hype.

    I think Firmino is probably their key man. He is the one who makes the attack work. Without him Ham Salad and Mane dont have the hold up play, the through balls, or people with vision to put them in the right areas.

    Coutinho used to do it, and when he was unavailable the ball went literally from back to front with no thought and was unsuccessful. Ham Salad and Mane just sprinting after it in useless areas.

    It took Coutinho to get the ball from the defence and do something with it, thats Firminos job now and he does it very well.


    No VVD and their defence is terrible. No Firmino and their attack isnt anything like as formidable.

    And as always, in general, if you can keep them contained for an hour they will run themselves out anyway...
     
    glasgowspur likes this.
  2. Robspur12

    Robspur12 Mitchell Thomas

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    Mate I like a lot of your post but I can't agree on the VVD comments. The guy is world class. Dominant in the air so they don't really concede from set pieces like we do. He is quick so not easy to get behind him. Strong as an ox in the tackle and not easily bullied off the ball. He also passes well too- long progressive passes not just side to side. He is, imo, the complete defender. In fact he has the combined attributes of our 3 best CHs. Take him out of the equation and Liverpool concede far more goals.

    Btw I agree with comments about Liverpool's inability to control games through the midfield unlike City. But they can close out games because of their defence better than anyone.
     
    Last edited: 6 Feb 2019
    harr1984 and Bullet like this.
  3. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Ian Walker

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    I certainly dont think he is world class.

    And listen, Im not even trying to dig him out. As I said, I think he is a decent player.

    I just dont think he is as remarkable as the hype suggests.

    A lot of it comes from just how bad they are defensively, Old Ginger Pele would look like a GHod stepping into that back line ;)
     
    Robbo, glasgowspur and galeforce like this.
  4. scaramanga

    scaramanga Tommy Harmer Staff Member

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    Quite. Try taking the equivalent of Kane and Alli out of their team and see how they do.

    Actually, there is no equivalent for them, you'd just have to imagine taking the pigfudger out of their team 3 or 4 times at once.
     
  5. r-u-s-x

    r-u-s-x Ruel Fox

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    They haven't really been playing that way this year have they - I thought they stopped pressing so much and just did the long ball.
     
  6. Robspur12

    Robspur12 Mitchell Thomas

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    Seems to be how teams, other than City, win the league these days.
     
  7. Robspur12

    Robspur12 Mitchell Thomas

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    Have to agree to disagree. The Liverpool defence will struggle without him and he is the one player from pool who would have a guaranteed place in any other PL starting 11.
     
  8. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Ian Walker

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    Thats fair enough. Personally wouldnt have him ahead of Vertonghen or Alderweireld, so we clearly dont see eye to eye on this one!
     
  9. Raziel

    Raziel Steve Carr

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    I'm not sure … similar to @nayimfromthehalfwayline not saying the guy isn't good, but world class is a bit of a stretch, and here is why

    - VVD has looked brilliant for Pool and a large part of that is due to him, but upgrade on keeper/FB and perhaps a slightly less suicidal game approach contribute to improved defense.
    - People are also back to being lulled into thinking Lovren is a top 6 level CB as well ..

    Maybe he's stepped up, but my memories of him are when all the talk about Pool buying him was going on, us playing against him and Harry having his way ...
     
  10. Robspur12

    Robspur12 Mitchell Thomas

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    I don't think anyone really rates Lovren the guy is a Muppet. I do agree that VVD on his own is not the only factor in their defensive improvement but he is the leader at the back that makes the centre halves like Lovren believe they are better than they are.

    The Kane thing, I think a lot of great defenders will get done by Kane one on one
     
  11. scaramanga

    scaramanga Tommy Harmer Staff Member

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    Remember lads, this doesn't slip
     
  12. Bullet

    Bullet Christian Ziege

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    No no no, I was told on here that Wijnaldum was COMFORTABLY their best player.
     
    MKSpur likes this.
  13. harr1984

    harr1984 Steve Carr

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    He is top class, and makes everything he does look simple. As for the Kane vs Southampton thing, Kane just managed to get to the ball just before VVD and toe poked it ahead of him that sort of incident really isn’t the norm. It does make me laugh how these sort of discussions go where posters here will search for every little excuse as to why a rivals player isn’t all that, when you know if they pulled on the Spurs shirt they would be the best thing since sliced bread:D
     
  14. the dza

    the dza Christian Ziege

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    VVD is a very good player.

    The biggest difference in Liverpool's defence this season: Better keeper, VVD and they play more conservatively as a team than they did last season.

    In terms of importance, the form of Ham Salad is up there. If he goes through a phase where everything is going in the net, coupled with their more defensive approach this season, they win a lot of games. Also, I think the fullbacks are very important to them, Robertson and TAA. They have missed TAA at right-back lately.

    They are a very good team, I think them and City are better than us. But there's not much in it. City are the best team imo, but then they should be.
     
  15. Raziel

    Raziel Steve Carr

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    Kane has got the better of him on more than one isolated incident, if the guy retains the form of the last 6 months .. ok .. but it's not nitpicking. I honestly would not break a Jan/Toby partnership for him. To dismiss that as rival fan brick is just disrespectful, I never said the guy isn't good, I said he isn't worldclass/top defender in the world everyone is making him out to be (my opinion).
     
  16. Raziel

    Raziel Steve Carr

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    City has best team in the league, by a good distance

    Pool vs us is an interesting conversation (full squads fit)

    - I think we are a better team at truly controlling a game, prettier to watch, better midfield
    - I think they are team overbalanced to attack, more hoofball, score more.

    I'm still not convinced that they are a consistent title winning team (not saying we are), but the results are there. So many teams have half season blinders, it will telling if this stup is the real deal for them or just great form.
     
  17. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Ian Walker

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    While Im sure you are speaking more in general, I would like to say I often post positively about other teams players.

    Just yesterday I was talking up Firmino who I think is excellent.

    So it kind of annoys me when things like this get thrown out, its a clumsy way to try and discredit an opinion.

    I have at no point said I dont think VVD is a good player, just that I dont think he is "world class" or anything like it, even though thats the popular narrative.
     
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  18. Robspur12

    Robspur12 Mitchell Thomas

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    I think we overestimate how good this partnership is. We concede a lot of cheap goals from set pieces. I think Toby, in particular, is very weak in the air. I would put VvD straight into the first team.
     
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  19. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Ian Walker

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    I think our defensive issues this season stem from midfield more than our defenders.
     
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  20. Gazza Dazzla

    Gazza Dazzla Chris Armstrong

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    It happens all the time, drives me mad. Your not allowed to be critical of any player in anyone elses team, or praise your own players (even though we’ve been at least 3rd best team in England the past 3/4 years and de facto top 20 in the world) without it being bias!? Especially if it’s a Liverpool player, a team who usually finish below us. WTF!

    I happen to think VVD is very good by the way, but just a general observation on this message board.
     

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