Transfer Tittle-Tattle

[Finney Is Back]

They played through Coutinho a lot, with him between strikers and midfield.

Without him they became much more direct and had an extra body in midfield to press and harrass.

IMO they changed quite a bit, and it was a change that made them less interesting to watch (IMO) but more defensively strong throughout the team.

I'm not sure I agree that they changed their style of play. I think that Liverpool have played a 4-3-3 under Klopp pretty much from the start. Coutinho would tend to take the wide forward role on either the left or right side (but mainly on the left) with Firminho through the middle. He would play as an inverted winger in the same way that Mane and Salah do now.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

That's the sort of thing that fans of other clubs said about Harry Kane a couple of seasons ago. The hype typically happens because the player has been extremely good. Do you think there is a better centre half in the Premier League right now than VVD?

I think Alderweireld and Vertonghen are better defenders than VVD (cue own club bias accusations).

Hype happens all the time without any good reason, I think it would be naive to just follow the trend and assume there is something to it.

And I think you are a much smarter poster than to be someone who would follow that track, so find your using it as a defence quite odd.

I'm not sure I agree that they changed their style of play. I think that Liverpool have played a 4-3-3 under Klopp pretty much from the start. Coutinho would tend to take the wide forward role on either the left or right side (but mainly on the left) with Firminho through the middle. He would play as an inverted winger in the same way that Mane and Salad do now.

You think Coutinho and Mane play the same way?

 

[MKSpur]

If we're really going in for Bale then I think it would be on a no fee loan with us funding no more than half of his wages.

That 54m would pay him 3 years at c350k, if Madrid let him go on a free. And from his perspective they’d still need to pay him 250k a week to make him leave!

I still can’t see anyone other than a club without a budget taking him on, realistically United or PSG for the attention.

 

[Bullet]

I’ve always assumed Bale will come back to the Prem with ‘Pool (Rush, Saunders) or Utd (Hughes, Giggs) rather than us lot.

He is good WHEN FIT but with Lamela and Wanyama we have learned that injured players are largely pointless

 

[alekaras]

Liverpool also reshaped their midfield in the absence of Coutinho and had them pressing like pshychos, I would suggest this had as much as anything to do with their improved defence. Not that it ever gets mentioned, the narrative of VVD single handedly saving their back line is far to compelling for most.

PFA is a popularity contest, couldnt give a toss. Just as most "experts" are proven idiots.

Sure, whatever you say. You know better than anyone, including people who have spent their whole lives in football.

International coaches are clueless, experts are clueless, players are clueless, only @nayimfromthehalfwayline knows. You do realize, and I'm saying this in a friendly way, you sound like Trump? "Don't believe what you see, hear and read." I understand having opinions, but passing them along as if they are the gospel comes off a bit childish.

Anywho...

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Sure, whatever you say. You know better than anyone, including people who have spent their whole lives in football.

International coaches are clueless, experts are clueless, players are clueless, only @nayimfromthehalfwayline knows. You do realize, and I'm saying this in a friendly way, you sound like Trump? "Don't believe what you see, hear and read." I understand having opinions, but passing them along as if they are the gospel comes off a bit childish.

Anywho...

Not something I ever do. Im nothing like Trump. And as "friendly" as you say your intentions are, Im pretty sure you know how inflammatory that sort of statement is.

Im simply pointing out I have my own thoughts and feelings, and can explain them thoroughly enough to not need to just default to "well Paul Merson disagrees on SSN".

You seem hell bent on picking at my every post, and yet havent once done so with a valid argument. And Im saying this in a friendly way, Id welcome it if you did.

MANY posters here have given thoughtful responses to me and changed my thinking, on MANY subjects. Just as many have failed to change my mind, but instead reinforced my feelings thanks to the examination they offered.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1151139968074620928

 

[alekaras]

Not something I ever do. Im nothing like Trump. And as "friendly" as you say your intentions are, Im pretty sure you know how inflammatory that sort of statement is.

Im simply pointing out I have my own thoughts and feelings, and can explain them thoroughly enough to not need to just default to "well Paul Merson disagrees on SSN".

You seem hell bent on picking at my every post, and yet havent once done so with a valid argument. And Im saying this in a friendly way, Id welcome it if you did.

MANY posters here have given thoughtful responses to me and changed my thinking, on MANY subjects. Just as many have failed to change my mind, but instead reinforced my feelings thanks to the examination they offered.

What I'm saying is that when you state an opinion that goes contrary to what the majority of football experts and the facts show, and insist on it despite that, well it does make one question why you are so unwilling to budge. The only posts of yours I have nitpicked are those ones, while there are others that I do agree with.

As for me, I do point out my own thoughts on things I respond to, but I also try to back them up with more factual data (hence the references to how many times someone has been called up, what awards he won, how a defense improved, etc.).

In any case, it's your prerogative to believe what you want and if my previous post was offensive, I apologize.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

What I'm saying is that when you state an opinion that goes contrary to what the majority of football experts and the facts show, and insist on it despite that, well it does make one question why you are so unwilling to budge. The only posts of yours I have nitpicked are those ones, while there are others that I do agree with.

As for me, I do point out my own thoughts on things I respond to, but I also try to back them up with more factual data (hence the references to how many times someone has been called up, what awards he won, how a defense improved, etc.).

In any case, it's your prerogative to believe what you want and if my previous post was offensive, I apologize.

Really depends on the weight you add to your "facts".

Yes, its true, (for example) Sissoko got MOTM one game - thats a fact - but so what? Its an arbitrary "award" given out by a rent-a-mouth pundit who was never good enough to manage. So whats it worth?

You think International caps are a measure of something - what, exactly? Because IMO, (and I actually went to lengths to explain why) Intl football is a totally different game and therefore an irrelevance. Yes, its a fact a player gets caps - but so what?

Which is where we seem to disagree. Come at me with facts I value and I may well change my view. Come at me with wishy-washy stuff and chances are I wont, and thats not my being unwilling to budge, rather its your being unsuccessful in convincing me my view is erroneous.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1151156250656354306

 

[parklane1]

That's the sort of thing that fans of other clubs said about Harry Kane a couple of seasons ago. The hype typically happens because the player has been extremely good. Do you think there is a better centre half in the Premier League right now than VVD?

Just one.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Just one.

Yeah but Brighton are selling him to Leicester apparently.



You should hear some of the things people are saying down here(Brighton) about Dunk.

"Worth more than Maguire"
"He will stay, more chance of getting in the England squad if he stays"
"Is the a better defender in Europe, 40m seems cheap"

Had to walk out the staff room because I wondered whether someone had spiked my tea.

 

[Rorschach]

Yeah but Brighton are selling him to Leicester apparently.



You should hear some of the things people are saying down here(Brighton) about Dunk.

"Worth more than Maguire"
"He will stay, more chance of getting in the England squad if he stays"
"Is the a better defender in Europe, 40m seems cheap"

Had to walk out the staff room because I wondered whether someone had spiked my tea.

Well that would make a change from you doing it.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

What I'm saying is that when you state an opinion that goes contrary to what the majority of football experts and the facts show, and insist on it despite that, well it does make one question why you are so unwilling to budge. The only posts of yours I have nitpicked are those ones, while there are others that I do agree with.

As for me, I do point out my own thoughts on things I respond to, but I also try to back them up with more factual data (hence the references to how many times someone has been called up, what awards he won, how a defense improved, etc.).

In any case, it's your prerogative to believe what you want and if my previous post was offensive, I apologize.

One issue I have with your comments... the term football experts. What makes the people experts?
Playing a game doesn’t IMO as in effect you become a specialist in a role as part of a team and your also guided by coaches and managers, so when those players become pundits their not experts perse. Just people with experienced based opinions

And you can not argue with the facts that they have conceded less since he joined, but there are possibly other factors and of course their scoring less than they did before too. I could argue that their more defence minded as a team now having a whole midfield that contributed very little in goals or assists so focused on defending more. Could also argue the addition of a better keeper changed their stats a lot. And of course the fact that they had a team that was so fresh after the World Cup in comparison to their peers helped

But that shouldn’t take away from the fact the VVD was excellent at all the basics last season which is easier said than done

 

[alekaras]

Really depends on the weight you add to your "facts".

Yes, its true, (for example) Sissoko got MOTM one game - thats a fact - but so what? Its an arbitrary "award" given out by a rent-a-mouth pundit who was never good enough to manage. So whats it worth?

You think International caps are a measure of something - what, exactly? Because IMO, (and I actually went to lengths to explain why) Intl football is a totally different game and therefore an irrelevance. Yes, its a fact a player gets caps - but so what?

Which is where we seem to disagree. Come at me with facts I value and I may well change my view. Come at me with wishy-washy stuff and chances are I wont, and thats not my being unwilling to budge, rather its your being unsuccessful in convincing me my view is erroneous.

The thing with facts is that they are, well... facts. There's no such thing as a wishy-washy fact. Using that characterization serves only to discount them because they do not suit a particular narrative. Like Trump saying that he didn't lose the popular vote, because 3 million people voted illegally. (and I'm not trying to compare you to Trump here, just bringing up an example)

Let's take your international caps argument. I would agree, if we were comparing two players from different countries. One having more caps wouldn't necessarily make him better. But when we are comparing two players from the same country playing in the same position and one has more than 3 times the caps, then just saying that international coaches are clueless is a similar argument to Trump saying 3 million people voted illegally.

I'm all for a good debate and part of that is opinion and part is backing your opinion with data. When you bring both to the table you will make a much stronger point and one that is difficult to disagree with. But when it's pure opinion and nothing more, and especially when it goes counter to popular belief, then be prepared for it to be challenged with factual data where possible.

 

[alekaras]

One issue I have with your comments... the term football experts. What makes the people experts?
Playing a game doesn’t IMO as in effect you become a specialist in a role as part of a team and your also guided by coaches and managers, so when those players become pundits their not experts perse. Just people with experienced based opinions

And you can not argue with the facts that they have conceded less since he joined, but there are possibly other factors and of course their scoring less than they did before too. I could argue that their more defence minded as a team now having a whole midfield that contributed very little in goals or assists so focused on defending more. Could also argue the addition of a better keeper changed their stats a lot. And of course the fact that they had a team that was so fresh after the World Cup in comparison to their peers helped

But that shouldn’t take away from the fact the VVD was excellent at all the basics last season which is easier said than done

There are some "experts" who are anything but. When I used the term experts, I referred to the totality of views from people associated with football, not just what one person said, who may be an "expert" in name, but nothing else. And the totality of views is that VvD is one of the best CBs out there. I'd never base an argument on just one person's opinion, no matter how highly that person's opinion might be regarded.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

The thing with facts is that they are, well... facts. There's no such thing as a wishy-washy fact. Using that characterization serves only to discount them because they do not suit a particular narrative. Like Trump saying that he didn't lose the popular vote, because 3 million people voted illegally. (and I'm not trying to compare you to Trump here, just bringing up an example)

Let's take your international caps argument. I would agree, if we were comparing two players from different countries. One having more caps wouldn't necessarily make him better. But when we are comparing two players from the same country playing in the same position and one has more than 3 times the caps, then just saying that international coaches are clueless is a similar argument to Trump saying 3 million people voted illegally.

I'm all for a good debate and part of that is opinion and part is backing your opinion with data. When you bring both to the table you will make a much stronger point and one that is difficult to disagree with. But when it's pure opinion and nothing more, and especially when it goes counter to popular belief, then be prepared for it to be challenged with factual data where possible.

Facts are like stats, true - but what do they mean? Often, whatever you want them to...

The international football thing is a real hang up for you, isnt it?

NDombele is 22, Sissoko 29 (soon to be 30) - on what basis should we expect them both to have a similar number of caps? They havent had similar opportunity at all. NDombele has but 2 seasons top flight football. Thats less time than Sissoko has been at Spurs. So while your comparison on caps is factually correct, its still a nonsense point to make - wishy washy, if you will - because it doesnt actually mean anything.

And this is my point - already made in the post you quote - Really depends on the weight you add to your "facts".

The facts you feel prove a point unequivocally, I feel mean very little. And its not to do with my opinion being held above all, but rather the ease with which those facts are dismissed.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

There are some "experts" who are anything but. When I used the term experts, I referred to the totality of views from people associated with football, not just what one person said, who may be an "expert" in name, but nothing else. And the totality of views is that VvD is one of the best CBs out there. I'd never base an argument on just one person's opinion, no matter how highly that person's opinion might be regarded.

Very fair

The classic over hype for me was the sissoko miss at tossfield

All I read was how good VVD wa yet in reality he did what you would expect any decent defender to do and he relied on the fact that sissoko can’t shoot for toffee

I do think this season everything will be different in the league as pool for example are on the few sides with players actually playing tournaments (last season they have virtually no one in the World Cup playing in reality)

 

[alekaras]

Facts are like stats, true - but what do they mean? Often, whatever you want them to...

The international football thing is a real hang up for you, isnt it?

NDombele is 22, Sissoko 29 (soon to be 30) - on what basis should we expect them both to have a similar number of caps? They havent had similar opportunity at all. NDombele has but 2 seasons top flight football. Thats less time than Sissoko has been at Spurs. So while your comparison on caps is factually correct, its still a nonsense point to make - wishy washy, if you will - because it doesnt actually mean anything.

And this is my point - already made in the post you quote - Really depends on the weight you add to your "facts".

The facts you feel prove a point unequivocally, I feel mean very little. And its not to do with my opinion being held above all, but rather the ease with which those facts are dismissed.

I agree with the Sissoko-Ndombele comparison: you can't compare a 22-year old with a 29-year old when it comes to caps and I would be silly to make such an assessment based on caps. But when comparing Sissoko with Nzonzi, which was the point of contention, they're practically the same age. So, same age, same position, same nationality. In this case wouldn't caps be an objective measure to determine who is the better player? And I'm not talking one has 40 and the other 35, but one has 55 and the other 14.

You can generalize that facts/stats can be cherry-picked and have a valid point, but personally I don't quote facts that won't stand up to scrutiny.

Anywho, back to transfers...

 

[Finney Is Back]

You think Coutinho and Mane play the same way?

I think the style of play of the two players is a little different. Mane has the pace advantage in receiving the ball in behind for example, but I don't think their roles for Liverpool were/are particularly different. Both played wide left (or right) in a 4-3-3. Both were/are given the ball early and asked to run at the opposition, cutting inside where possible, both were/are free'd of defensive responsibility other than tracking the runs forward of their full back in direct opposition (if they dare make them). I don't think having Coutinho or Mane on the left of midfield changes Liverpool's defensive game one iota.