****TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR vs west sham united************

[Shelfie]

Playing devil's advocate, but you could argue that a goal scoring opportunity has nothing to do with the trajectory of the ball and the fact that it is an opportunity is decided before the ball is actually struck. Even if Lloris was likely to make the save, the opportunity to score a goal was still there.

I've got no sympathy for Naughton either, daft to jump in like that with his arms in the air in the box.

Interesting point, though by definition a handball occurs after the ball has been struck, and so we're in 'another phase'. For example, had Nolan been fouled just as he was about to shoot, then it's a penalty, but would normally not be a red card, because of where Lloris was positioned, it wouldn't be seen as an 'obvious goal scoring opportunity'.

After the ball is struck, surely different criteria come into play. For example, say it was clearly going over the bar or wide of the post, would the lino have recommended the red?

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Interesting point, though by definition a handball occurs after the ball has been struck, and so we're in 'another phase'. For example, had Nolan been fouled just as he was about to shoot, then it's a penalty, but would normally not be a red card, because of where Lloris was positioned, it wouldn't be seen as an 'obvious goal scoring opportunity'.

After the ball is struck, surely different criteria come into play. For example, say it was clearly going over the bar or wide of the post, would the lino have recommended the red?

Yeh, I agree with you to be fair. Once the ball has been struck, the measure of the opportunity has to be whether the shot is on target or not (or at least something), although then I suppose you are back into the realms of arguing over whether the keeper would save it or not.

To use your Nolan example what we are saying is that had Nolan been about to shoot, we wouldn't have considered it worthy of a red for stopping a clear goal scoring opportunity because of where Lloris was positioned, yet if he gets a shot away and someone stops it with their hand, it is worthy of a red for stopping a clear goal scoring opportunity even though Lloris is in the same position. Is that really fair?

I realise I've flipped my 'arguement' a bit here, but as I say, I'm just playing devil's advocate, I've no idea what the right or wrong answer is. All I know is the FA need to define opportunity in their rule book a bit better!

 

[Hully]

The club have decided not to appeal the red. Big shame; it now sets the precedent for giving these as reds which wasn't how the law was intended.

We didn't appeal because we had a low chance of winning. He had his hands above head hight and the ball was going towards goal. I agree it's a harsh one, but I don't see any grounds for arguing it was an obvious refereeing mistake. Better not to appeal than appeal and lose.

 

[Shelfie]

Yeh, I agree with you to be fair. Once the ball has been struck, the measure of the opportunity has to be whether the shot is on target or not (or at least something), although then I suppose you are back into the realms of arguing over whether the keeper would save it or not.

To use your Nolan example what we are saying is that had Nolan been about to shoot, we wouldn't have considered it worthy of a red for stopping a clear goal scoring opportunity because of where Lloris was positioned, yet if he gets a shot away and someone stops it with their hand, it is worthy of a red for stopping a clear goal scoring opportunity even though Lloris is in the same position. Is that really fair?

I realise I've flipped my 'arguement' a bit here, but as I say, I'm just playing devil's advocate, I've no idea what the right or wrong answer is. All I know is the FA need to define opportunity in their rule book a bit better!

Fair comments. I think there should be more clarification on this issue of 'obvious goal scoring opportunity'. However, it's FIFA who have jurisdiction over the laws of the game, AFAIK. The beauty of the Laws are that they are commendably brief. There are examples that help to give guidance. but if you tried to pack too much definition and explanations in the actual Laws, they would end up the size of an average novel and lose much of their effectiveness.

Referees are given guidance on what's in the Laws, and they in turn give guidance to clubs. But in the heat of the moment, the ref has to make the call, or in this case the lino. Which is my big beef about Naughton's red.