Throw ins

[Pirate55]

We're not great but it's due to a lack of movement IMO.

Our movement off the ball (a small handful of players aside) has been poor for a long time, this gets shown up particularly clearly at throws.

We used to have shocking movement at corners too. Thankfully that has at least (marginally) improved

 

[Pirate55]

If a team did as you suggest and did plenty of work on corners on the training pitch, what percentage increase in goals scored or chances created do you think they could expect?

Even one more goal would be an achievement.

Conversely, do you really believe that we should do no work on the training ground on corners?

 

[milo]

Even one more goal would be an achievement.

Conversely, do you really believe that we should do no work on the training ground on corners?

I was wondering how long it would be before you were drawn to this thread

Even if we could get a 10% improvement we could only expect between 1/2 and 1 more goals scored per season.

I am not saying that we should never work on corners on the training ground, just that we should not expect it to make much difference to our fortunes. Given the choice between working on corners and working on open play or free kicks, it seems bizarre to me to choose to spend time on an area of the game that does not create many chances.

 

[Baleforce]

I was wondering how long it would be before you were drawn to this thread

Even if we could get a 10% improvement we could only expect between 1/2 and 1 more goals scored per season.

I am not saying that we should never work on corners on the training ground, just that we should not expect it to make much difference to our fortunes. Given the choice between working on corners and working on open play or free kicks, it seems bizarre to me to choose to spend time on an area of the game that does not create many chances.

when you put it like that, I think of this guy

 

[Pirate55]

12% of corners result directly in a shot. Of those, only 13% are scored. Compared to other shots from that kind of area that's only slightly below the average. So that's a direct goal from a corner every 65 or so corners.

If we include all shot from a corner situation (not just direct ones) then we're up to 17% of corners resulting in a shot and 17% of them resulting in a goal. That includes short corners and those that ping around the box before being scored - I don't have the data to separate them.

TL: DR - You're right, direct corners are a poor way of scoring unless you're set up to specialise in them which obviously hurts you elsewhere. One day soon, English people will begin to realise that "Into the mixer" is not a beneficial tactic and football in this country will be vastly improved for it.

To put some bones on those stats. Lets take 100 direct corners. 12 result in a shot and 13% of those are scored - i.e. 1.56. So less than 2% of corners are scored from. Personally, I find that hard to believe, but leave that to one side.

With all corners (short, long and pinging around) according to your stats, 17 result in a shot and 17% of those are scored - i.e. 2.89. So almost 3% are scored from all these types of corners.

By your own admission, these are relatively the same percentages "compared to other shots from that kind of area, thats only slightly below the average". I presume you mean by "that kind of area", in and around the penalty area.

I would argue that anything that can give your team an advantage (however slight) should be worked on. These guys are, after all, professionals, playing at the highest level of the game and they use every other means of getting marginal advantages - diet, training, rest, weights etc etc, why should the not also seek to gain advantage from a dead ball position? After all, how many corners do we get a game? Somewhere between 6 and 10, I would guess. Surely we should take every opportunity to maximise our advantages from these positions. To neglect to do so would be most unprofessional.

 

[Pirate55]

I was wondering how long it would be before you were drawn to this thread

Even if we could get a 10% improvement we could only expect between 1/2 and 1 more goals scored per season.

I am not saying that we should never work on corners on the training ground, just that we should not expect it to make much difference to our fortunes. Given the choice between working on corners and working on open play or free kicks, it seems bizarre to me to choose to spend time on an area of the game that does not create many chances.

And one more goal could mean two more points. That could mean the difference between CL or not. Such are the fine margins. Put like that, even you must agree it is worth working on

 

[Baleforce]

we're not short of time, players still knock off at 2pm right?

stick another 10 min in the morning session to practice them, zero cost, possible gain

 

[milo]

And one more goal could mean two more points. That could mean the difference between CL or not. Such are the fine margins. Put like that, even you must agree it is worth working on

We've had this discussion before. You weren't open for considering the weaknesses in your argument then, and I doubt that you have changed you mind, so if this is going to go the same way, I will probably bow out soon.

As I have already said in this thread, corners only provide a marginal goal scoring opportunity advantage to the attacking side over the defending side. Even a decent improvement in goal scoring opportunities created from corners will have only a small impact on a teams chances. Given the choice between working on this and phases of play that create more goal scoring opportunities, it seem bizarre to me to want to prioritise something that will give you less chances to pick up points. Of course, given an infinite amount of time, I would definitely work on corners loads if I was a coach.

 

[Pirate55]

We've had this discussion before. You weren't open for considering the weaknesses in your argument then, and I doubt that you have changed you mind, so if this is going to go the same way, I will probably bow out soon.

As I have already said in this thread, corners only provide a marginal goal scoring opportunity advantage to the attacking side over the defending side. Even a decent improvement in goal scoring opportunities created from corners will have only a small impact on a teams chances. Given the choice between working on this and phases of play that create more goal scoring opportunities, it seem bizarre to me to want to prioritise something that will give you less chances to pick up points. Of course, given an infinite amount of time, I would definitely work on corners loads if I was a coach.

I agree. Time to agree to disagree on this. What I would say though as a parting shot, is that Poch obviously thinks it is worth working on as our corners have improved under him. If Lamella can continue to beat the first man ( something Eriksen bizarrely often failed to do) then we should see a greater return on corners than in previous seasons. It would help even more if we had someone coming in around the back as most of our players seem to either go short or stay central. Just a thought.

 

[alekaras]

I think looking at overall corner stats can be a bit misleading. Just like the title of this thread, which is about throw ins.

Back to my point, however, overall corner stats can be misleading. You have players who deliver excellent dead balls and a majority who are average to poor. If you average them out, you'll conclude that corners provide paltry returns. However, if a player hones his skills to deliver excellent corners all the time, I would have to believe that the percentages that @milo quoted would be higher. Lamela is a good example. How many assists has he gotten from corners compared to how many he has taken? If anyone has those stats, they'd be interesting to see. As well as stats on any other good corner takers.

 

[milo]

I agree. Time to agree to disagree on this. What I would say though as a parting shot, is that Poch obviously thinks it is worth working on as our corners have improved under him. If Lamella can continue to beat the first man ( something Eriksen bizarrely often failed to do) then we should see a greater return on corners than in previous seasons. It would help even more if we had someone coming in around the back as most of our players seem to either go short or stay central. Just a thought.

I think that you are looking for stuff to support your own argument. It is equally possible that Poch has changed nothing and it is just natural variation. Come the end of the season I would be surprised if we had scored many more goals from corners than most of the clubs in the league.

 

[milo]

I think looking at overall corner stats can be a bit misleading. Just like the title of this thread, which is about throw ins.

Back to my point, however, overall corner stats can be misleading. You have players who deliver excellent dead balls and a majority who are average to poor. If you average them out, you'll conclude that corners provide paltry returns. However, if a player hones his skills to deliver excellent corners all the time, I would have to believe that the percentages that @milo quoted would be higher. Lamela is a good example. How many assists has he gotten from corners compared to how many he has taken? If anyone has those stats, they'd be interesting to see. As well as stats on any other good corner takers.

It's easy to test that hypothesis. Look at the goals scored from corners for each club. You'll see that in most seasons they are clustered.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Corners could be a huge advantage for us if we work on them

Assuming that no side does anymore as has bend inferred (or no side puts any significant effort in) the it wouldn't give us a distinct advantage

As I said yesterday the quality of the corner isn't taken into account with this stats is it. It's purely black and white numbers

 

[milo]

Corners could be a huge advantage for us if we work on them

Assuming that no side does anymore as has bend inferred (or no side puts any significant effort in) the it wouldn't give us a distinct advantage

As I said yesterday the quality of the corner isn't taken into account with this stats is it. It's purely black and white numbers

That can accounted for by looking at and comparing that stats for different teams over a range of seasons. There is little change that cannot be account for by natural variation.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

That can accounted for by looking at and comparing that stats for different teams over a range of seasons. There is little change that cannot be account for by natural variation.

So the stats account for the fact that teams do not work on corners anymore?

I'm all for using stats with context. There is no context in just quoting black and white Numbers and I'd also like to see the source of the info too

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Here's an article that completely flips around the a thumping that there not valuable

http://www.businessinsider.com/value-corner-kicks-football-2013-7?IR=T

Again it could be complete gonad*s but he has used stats

 

[Baleforce]

if you work on anything long enough you will get better at it

it's not so much goals scored from corners, it's how many corners that beat the first man, arrive in the danger area that are not close enough to the keeper for them to claim, that's a metric that could show an improvement in accuracy by the taker

 

[milo]

So the stats account for the fact that teams do not work on corners anymore?

I'm all for using stats with context. There is no context in just quoting black and white Numbers and I'd also like to see the source of the info too

What you are arguing then is that you have found a gaping hole in every professional teams' coaching.

 

[milo]

Here's an article that completely flips around the a thumping that there not valuable

http://www.businessinsider.com/value-corner-kicks-football-2013-7?IR=T

Again it could be complete cobblers but he has used stats

It's pretty flawed analysis comparing corners with passes because the vast majority of passes are made in parts of the pitch where a goal scoring opportunity is not available.

I would recommend reading the book they quote in the first paragraph. The Numbers Game is an excellent read.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

my argument if its an argument is writing something off because someone has produced some stats that says it doesn't work it's blinkered and limited

If we become a club that's a threat from corners (which I think we are more than most) then others will follow

Stats would have shown a few years back that one up front didn't work yet now it's the en vogue way of playing