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The slightly girly Health, Fitness & Diet Thread

scaramanga said:
The analysis from proper doctors appears to be that it works in the same way as a proper diet - just with added fairy dust and health risks.


I'd say you're right on the whole but it does tend to lead towards peer reviewed studies in respectable journals too.

The use of the word skeptic is a carefully chosen one. Those who identify themselves as one have the discovery of truth and scientific accuracy as goals.
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You still banging on about this. Ketosis is a real thing. It's all sciency an' all.
 
Some people have had good results with the Keto diet. I don't know if people can stay on it forever or not. I think there's also healthier ways to go about it than others (some would use it as an excuse to live on bacon). I remember reading something about people doing it, then re-introducing a moderate amount of carbs and keeping the weight off.

I don't know much about this stuff though, as I like a donut. I do think people should lift weights more, it's good for your body, helps your bones etc. My job is quite physically tiring, so I don't do that as much as I did when I was younger, but still try and do a bit.
 
MKSpur said:
So not a gym fanatic by any means, a broken toe in December ended my footy for a few weeks and then a busier job cut my gym time, add in natural Christmas excesses it’s been a bad few weeks. I do believe routine is key so I find I do most of my best work (drinking water, eating healthier, going to gym) so aiming for at least one 5k outdoor run 2 games of footy and a spin class each week, along with 3 sessions at home or gym to do back stretching and bodyweight exercises. I’ve always wondered if I did one more press up / squat / crunch every day would I be doing 365 of them by the end of the year?!

Then try and stick to an 80 20 rule on the booze and junk food. Good rule of thumb is to be hungover in work time rather than waste a weekend feeling like brick. Harder when spurs are at home on a Saturday!

Isn’t it annoying how busy gyms are in January though?!

Does anyone here go down the personal trainer route? I was thinking about it for some specific football conditioning exercises as I find it difficult doing non standard gym exercises on my own.
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I use a personal trainer, it keeps me motivated and if you get a good one they will teach you loads and will do sessions based upon your goals (I've had a couple that just want you to do their programme) using exercises that you like doing.

Up until I tweaked my achilles and spanked a couple of ligaments in my ankle last summer I was training 3hrs a week with a PT and 3 hrs without.

Well worth it in my opinion.

Now just need to wait for the masses to get fed up with their new memberships and to get the all clear from my physio and I can get back on it and start losing the 10kg I've put on.
 
Rorschach said:
A doctor. The Atkins diet is not the same as a ketogenic diet. I could send you loads of links too if you want but I'm guessing your mind is not for changing.
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If you can send some links to peer reviewed, appropriately scaled studies published in respected medical journals I'll happily change my mind.
 
scaramanga said:
If you can send some links to peer reviewed, appropriately scaled studies published in respected medical journals I'll happily change my mind.
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;). So you would like me to send peer-reviewed research to counteract the cognitively biased article you stumbled across in order to persuade you to my opinion about the thing you never even heard about until today. I'll pass.
 
No fairy dust required. When triglycerides in adipose tissues is metabolised, FFA (Free Fatty Acids) provide fuel for the body. Part of the process of lipid metabolism is the creation of ketone bodies in the liver (acetoacetate, acetate & betahydroxybuterate) that is used as a primary fuel source for all tissues/cells except red blood cells.

The reason people lose fat on a low carb or keto diet is to do with the impact on the endocrine system. Carbohydrates (sugar& starch) stimulate insulin secretion. Not only is insulin used to store excess glucose in tissue, it is also used to store lipids (both exogenous and liver converted lipids from excess glucose/fructose) in adipose tissue. Basal pulsatile insulin keeps us alive. the absence of insulin over and above that threshold is sufficient to trigger ketogenesis which means the release of triglycerides from adipose tissue as fuel for the body effectively replacing glucose as the main fuel source.

At this stage it is cognisant to point out that whilst amino acids (protein) and fatty acids are essential nutrients; carbohydrates are not. The minimal daily amount of glucose required (about a teaspoon) is produced by the liver via the process of gluconeogenesis that utilises the breakdown of amino/fatty acids.
 
Robbo said:
Personally I put my faith in a balanced diet and regular exercise.

Boring, I know.
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Balanced is a highly subjective term and so much depends on context. Eating in moderation is another exasperating term that is unquantifiable, particularly in the field of nutrition given the multitude of variables, much of which we are still yet to comprehend.

Sent from my SM-J600G using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
spasm said:
No fairy dust required. When triglycerides in adipose tissues is metabolised, FFA (Free Fatty Acids) provide fuel for the body. Part of the process of lipid metabolism is the creation of ketone bodies in the liver (acetoacetate, acetate & betahydroxybuterate) that is used as a primary fuel source for all tissues/cells except red blood cells.

The reason people lose fat on a low carb or keto diet is to do with the impact on the endocrine system. Carbohydrates (sugar& starch) stimulate insulin secretion. Not only is insulin used to store excess glucose in tissue, it is also used to store lipids (both exogenous and liver converted lipids from excess glucose/fructose) in adipose tissue. Basal pulsatile insulin keeps us alive. the absence of insulin over and above that threshold is sufficient to trigger ketogenesis which means the release of triglycerides from adipose tissue as fuel for the body effectively replacing glucose as the main fuel source.

At this stage it is cognisant to point out that whilst amino acids (protein) and fatty acids are essential nutrients; carbohydrates are not. The minimal daily amount of glucose required (about a teaspoon) is produced by the liver via the process of gluconeogenesis that utilises the breakdown of amino/fatty acids.
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I've read all that yesterday. Can you provide evidence of it working as a diet? Every decent trial I've seen has it make a short downwards bounce in weight, followed by weight gain.

Fad diets have been around for decades, and they've all been flimflam. The only kind of diet that has continued to work over that time is fewer calories in than out - you can't cheat physics.
 
Rorschach said:
;). So you would like me to send peer-reviewed research to counteract the cognitively biased article you stumbled across in order to persuade you to my opinion about the thing you never even heard about until today. I'll pass.
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Yep. It's pretty much the minimum standard when making a medicinal or nutritional claim.

Here's a shortcut to knowing whether you're right or not. If Gifter were here, he'd be agreeing with you.
 
scaramanga said:
Yep. It's pretty much the minimum standard when making a medicinal or nutritional claim.

Here's a shortcut to knowing whether you're right or not. If Gifter were here, he'd be agreeing with you.
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Nice tactic to conflating my point with crystals ;). They have been using ketogenic diets as part of medical treatments for many years. I'm on safe ground. If you would like to argue against that practice with peer reviewed, appropriately scaled studies published in respected medical journals I'll happily change my mind.
 
scaramanga said:
I've read all that yesterday. Can you provide evidence of it working as a diet? Every decent trial I've seen has it make a short downwards bounce in weight, followed by weight gain.

Fad diets have been around for decades, and they've all been flimflam. The only kind of diet that has continued to work over that time is fewer calories in than out - you can't cheat physics.
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With regards to regaining weight, As shown by Emeritus Prof. Keith Frayn (Human Metabolism) experiments at his Oxford lab, this is more to do with adipose tissue health (being the second largest endocrine organ), its apoptosis/turnover time as well as insulin sensitivity (as evidenced by Chris Gardner's study out of Stanford).

The issue is you do not consume calories per se, but rather food which is broken down into a host of amino acids, fatty acids and saccharides that illicit varying hormonal responses (critically insulin, glucagon, leptin, ghrelin and the incretin hormones) within the human body (that then dictate fuel partitioning, cell autophagy, metabolic/catabolic responses) are therefore not solely dependent on calories but rather the nature of macronutrient intake. Depending on a whole host of genetic, aging and lifestyle factors, over time this causes metabolic dysregulation which presents as obesity and in most cases T2 diabetes.

In addition, refer to the work of Prof.Ben Bikman where the absence of elevated insulin converts white adipose tissue into brown adipose tissue which
is akin to a slow wood fire that consumes energy at a cellular level over and above your BMR or TDEE.

Here is a list of some RCTs with some caveats:

1. It is critical to distinguish fad diets with basic human physiology. Everyone produces ketone bodies. The only important frame of reference is quantum. Carb fueled individuals typically run 0.2m/mols plasma levels. Individuals that have become fat adapted range from 0.5-5 m/mols. A prolonged fast will tip up to about 7. Once you go into high double digits, it is classified as ketoacidosis which is deadly. Basal insulin levels in all individuals (except for Type 1 diabetics that require exogenous insulin) will prevent that from happening.

2. There is no one size fits all optimal diet and I am not asserting that everyone should follow a well formulated ketogenic diet. However, for most individuals with metabolic dysfunction and/or diabetes, it is certainly the most prudent in helping deal with the root cause as well as co-morbidities. Chris Gardner's study out of Stanford proved as such. The critical factor is insulin sensitivity. I would also recommend the Virta Health Study (by Drs.Phinney, Volek & Hallberg) and Dr.Westman's clinical work over the last 10 years at Duke/HEAL clinics.

3.Whilst Double Blind RCTs are the gold standard for pharma research, it can be argued that nutrition science is an entirely different kettle of fish. Whilst you have separate cohorts acting as control/placebo and target groups in drug trials, removing a macronutrient long term within a metabolic ward setting is extremely difficult, incredibly complex and prohibitively expensive. Omega 3 v Omega 6 for example are both critical nutrients but an equally important part of the equation is the ratio as both serve different functions in the body and all foods contain a mix of macronutrients.

There are some RCTs here for you to check out: https://phcuk.org/rcts/
 
spasm said:
With regards to regaining weight, As shown by Emeritus Prof. Keith Frayn (Human Metabolism) experiments at his Oxford lab, this is more to do with adipose tissue health (being the second largest endocrine organ), its apoptosis/turnover time as well as insulin sensitivity (as evidenced by Chris Gardner's study out of Stanford).

The issue is you do not consume calories per se, but rather food which is broken down into a host of amino acids, fatty acids and saccharides that illicit varying hormonal responses (critically insulin, glucagon, leptin, ghrelin and the incretin hormones) within the human body (that then dictate fuel partitioning, cell autophagy, metabolic/catabolic responses) are therefore not solely dependent on calories but rather the nature of macronutrient intake. Depending on a whole host of genetic, aging and lifestyle factors, over time this causes metabolic dysregulation which presents as obesity and in most cases T2 diabetes.

In addition, refer to the work of Prof.Ben Bikman where the absence of elevated insulin converts white adipose tissue into brown adipose tissue which
is akin to a slow wood fire that consumes energy at a cellular level over and above your BMR or TDEE.

Here is a list of some RCTs with some caveats:

1. It is critical to distinguish fad diets with basic human physiology. Everyone produces ketone bodies. The only important frame of reference is quantum. Carb fueled individuals typically run 0.2m/mols plasma levels. Individuals that have become fat adapted range from 0.5-5 m/mols. A prolonged fast will tip up to about 7. Once you go into high double digits, it is classified as ketoacidosis which is deadly. Basal insulin levels in all individuals (except for Type 1 diabetics that require exogenous insulin) will prevent that from happening.

2. There is no one size fits all optimal diet and I am not asserting that everyone should follow a well formulated ketogenic diet. However, for most individuals with metabolic dysfunction and/or diabetes, it is certainly the most prudent in helping deal with the root cause as well as co-morbidities. Chris Gardner's study out of Stanford proved as such. The critical factor is insulin sensitivity. I would also recommend the Virta Health Study (by Drs.Phinney, Volek & Hallberg) and Dr.Westman's clinical work over the last 10 years at Duke/HEAL clinics.

3.Whilst Double Blind RCTs are the gold standard for pharma research, it can be argued that nutrition science is an entirely different kettle of fish. Whilst you have separate cohorts acting as control/placebo and target groups in drug trials, removing a macronutrient long term within a metabolic ward setting is extremely difficult, incredibly complex and prohibitively expensive. Omega 3 v Omega 6 for example are both critical nutrients but an equally important part of the equation is the ratio as both serve different functions in the body and all foods contain a mix of macronutrients.

There are some RCTs here for you to check out: https://phcuk.org/rcts/
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"My science isn't like other science, it can't be proven by the same measures the whole of the scientific community accepts as standard"
 
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