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The Art of VAR

Discussion in 'General Football' started by Gutter Boy, 28 Feb 2018.

  1. milo

    milo Vivian Woodward Staff Member

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    Which is why I think that they should be booked.
     
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  2. galeforce

    galeforce Tony Galvin

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    if you notice something, it's clear and obvious, you can't un-see it
     
  3. r-u-s-x

    r-u-s-x Ruel Fox

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    sure - this will be used in the same way as Ungentlemanly conduct as a get out for any decision a ref wants then.
     
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  4. galeforce

    galeforce Tony Galvin

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    which is why it should be an instant booking for anyone who tries it
     
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  5. Grays_1890

    Grays_1890 Gerry Armstrong

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    I hope you are right but I fear that if VAR is being used on subjective decisions and that decision is passed onto another human sat in a box managers will still find a reason to moan.

    I dont think we will see a decrease in that side unfortunately
     
  6. parklane1

    parklane1 Andy Thompson

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    I have said my piece over this farce of VAR and all we are doing is going around in circles, its not needed ( imo) and its been shown to be just as fallible as the decisions made by refs. I understand that some folks think it is needed and some do not. As i ( and others) have said it seems nearly every country it has been used in are unhappy and even our own manager has said he does not like it.

    For now i do not see ( or feel) the need to keep discussing the same thing over and over again, so i will leave you to it for now.
     
  7. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Ian Walker

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    400% agree with you. It is ridiculous they used a World Cup as a proving ground for a clearly hurried and poorly designed process, and continue to test it at the top end of the domestic game.

    That is just fundamentally stupid. Like Hawkeye/goal line tech, as someone mentioned earlier, it should have been thoroughly developed before even being thought about tested in live games. And even then, not in such high profile ones.

    The rest - it does sound to me a lot like a communication issue than actual VAR. Do you think if they had displayed the whole process up on the screens you would have felt the same?

    Managers moan about anything that suits them, personally I find it pinch of salt stuff rather than having any substance.

    If it wasnt VAR it would be the ref, the watering of the pitch, the sun setting and glaring in the keepers eyes...

    ...anything to deflect from the fact they lost.

    For me its not really something to hold against VAR, rather its just the nature of the beast.


    I asked for some examples, so we need not go round in circles. Raise tangible points we can discuss and it moves on.

    Flop out with a wishy washy excuse and how does that look?

    How has it been shown to be "just as fallible" as decisions made by refs? Surely by its very nature, while it isnt infallible the refs are given far more opportunity to make the right call?
     
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  8. Spur of the moment

    Spur of the moment Michael Carrick

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    You make a lot of good points but one reason for some fan's not liking it that you seem to have missed here is that it robs them of that moment of exhilaration and abandonment immediately after a goal is scored.

    Imo it is THIS that fans are really feeling sore about and even when the VAR eventually awards the goal, their delight has been punctured. By then it's already too late, their celebration is now comparatively muted and what was at first joy has now turned into mere relief.
     
  9. parklane1

    parklane1 Andy Thompson

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    Anyway you want it to look mate personally i care little, as i said earlier in the thread you are entrenched in you view as i am in mine. No point in repeating it over and over again. :)
     
  10. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Ian Walker

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    Goals get disallowed now, thanks to the goal line tech as well as linesmans decisions - does that rob you of the enjoyment of celebrating a goal?

    Do you wait the 3-4 seconds it takes to check all is well before cheering?

    Not trying to be funny, or difficult - genuine question.

    VAR was in play a few times against Chelsea, but only once (to my recollection) did it delay the game. Otherwise decisions were being made as play went on. Ultimately they sided with the ref so nobody noticed, I assume if they didnt play would have been called back?

    I think a big part of the issue in these senses, is the fact its new. Its on everyones mind. Its a feature of the spectacle because of the novelty of it all.

    And because its do's/dont's and general practice has been extremely poorly communicated. Who in the crowd really knows what its there for, when, how etc? Its just seen as some sort of over bearing force ready to pounce and interfere at any time.

    Do you think after a season of VAR, after getting used to it, after games where its barely featured (for example) you would still have this feeling?
     
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  11. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Ian Walker

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    And as I said, aside from not being entrenched - Im offering a way for the conversation to move on. One you refuse to take. So I guess theres my answer. There are no examples and youre being an old grump ;)
     
  12. Grays_1890

    Grays_1890 Gerry Armstrong

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    No of course it should not be held against VAR but it was in large part introduced to stop that rage from refs.

    And this is where I conclude I am with it, like I say on a number of threads, the problem in all this is not the refs or the success rate of decisions its the attitude of managers and players that is the problem and if that side of the game was dealt with is a way where UEFA, FIFA and the FA were not so scared then there would be no real reason for VAR. Its a rage thing not a ref think thats the issue here and for me always has been.
     
  13. scaramanga

    scaramanga Tommy Harmer Staff Member

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    All incorrect offsides are "clear and obvious errors" because they're a binary decision. Just like whether or not the ball has crossed a line.

    Where there isn't always a "clear and obvious error" is with decisions such as whether a tackle was reckless or whether handball should be given (seeing as referees all incorrectly apply that rule).

    Offside is binary - any incorrect decision is clear and obvious to the VAR.
     
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  14. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Ian Walker

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    Which isnt an issue with VAR, but general conduct?

    Which is fair enough. I think there should be much more discipline in the game, much more respect shown - both on and off the field. Id agree with you there whole heartedly.

    In this particular instance, I really feel itll calm with time. Having seen the VAR process, there really isnt much to argue. If there is, its down to millimetres. After VAR is established and just the norm, I dont see it being raised as a point of contention in all honesty.

    I am still pretty convinced Chelsea are just playing politics here, more than having a genuine grievance. As I said, they do enjoy that intangible benefit of being a big name club and being able to apply pressure to referees/refereeing. VAR basically (should) nullifies that, and I suspect this song and dance is much more about the bigger picture than the incident itself.
     
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  15. Grays_1890

    Grays_1890 Gerry Armstrong

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    I do think thats a very fair statement, its a huge part of the game from a fans perspective and if that thats a hit its not going to be good for the sport. Enthusiam from fans seems to be dwindling.
     
  16. galeforce

    galeforce Tony Galvin

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    the clubs/players/managers are not impartial, they don't care about the integrity of the competition, their employment is tied directly to the success of their organisation, they have no incentive to accept refereeing mistakes, the authorities have to lead
     
  17. Grays_1890

    Grays_1890 Gerry Armstrong

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    Correct which is why I believe is conduct was approached with the same emphasis as VAR is being persued then there would be no reason for VAR.
     
  18. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Ian Walker

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    I think r-u-s-x raises a good point - clearly in discussing this there is room for interpretation still.

    What is clear and obvious to you, isnt to him.

    Just as with the last pages of this thread, any communication around VAR is completely lacking.

    I genuinely believe increased communication would smooth a huge amount of resistance out.
    - Lets see the decision in action as it was shown on Sky, everyone knows whats happening
    - Lets have a post match report/breakdown explaining decisions. Not least because then people will get a greater appreciation for the rules and their implementation
    - Lets have an "idiots guide to VAR" tutorial, so people know what its for, when, and how it works.

    I mean, seriously, there are so many gaps in the whole thing from a regular fans POV its embarrassing. Fill those gaps and I honestly think things will be enormously improved.
     
  19. Grays_1890

    Grays_1890 Gerry Armstrong

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    Refereeing decisions are not the real problem here. The real problem is the disproportionate attention devoted to discussing refereeing decisions. The number of actual injustices, as opposed to disagreements, is minuscule.

    As I say people are the problem here. VAR is just another attempt to cope with and soothe the managers feelings of disempowerment and alienation. Rage demands VAR more than any meaningful search for objective truth.

    The real answer is for people to calm down.
     
  20. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Ian Walker

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    I wonder if you are mixing issues here? I see them as quite seperate.

    VAR, for me, is all about making sure the right decisions are made. Especially the key ones, the game changing ones, that are extremely difficult in regular circumstance.

    Conduct is about discipline, its an entirely different thing. Annoyingly there are rules to combat it already, they are just not enforced. This is a whole other issue!

    The only cross over, to my mind, is in taking some decisions away from the ref, making them a remote thing - takes the ability for players to argue with the ref away. Its not on him and doesnt achieve anything.
     
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