Tanguy Ndombele

[braineclipse]

He just isn’t the answer
He was never the creator at Lyon either
He was the deep lying line breaker from
Midfield. I was a huge advocate of signing him
But his lack of impact here has coincided with his lack of work, drive and just balls
We look better without him
And that’s with him being more talented than anyone else
People think he can create but his attacking third stats are on par with Hojdjberg who is a DM
Right now we need a 4-2-3-1 formation
We can play skipp and Hojdjberg in the 4 and ask the full backs to push ok more
Or we play 3 at the back with one dm which would suit Romero, Japhet and Rodon IMO
That way you could fit Tanguy is a CM role
Skipp played a different role but the team looked smiles better. More cohesive and quicker

How do you get those deep line breaking moves?

Option A: Give him the ball. Little movement around him, opposition settled in their defensive setup based on where the ball is. Ask him to produce absolute magic to break the lines.

Option B: Move the ball with some sort of pace and purpose in the team, some actual movement ahead of him (not just runs in behind) then when some space opens up have him do his thing.

He can produce in option A, but not with the required frequency, and the risk will probably be unacceptable. The number of players that can create in that scenario with a good enough frequency with acceptable risk is miniscule. The players that can do that and defend well enough for that role... Pedri? Maybe...

He wasn't even the deepest midfielder, the one responsible for helping out with the initial buildup play, that was Hojbjerg. Along with our entire back line and Lloris they looked incapable of moving the ball with pace and purpose. Keep doing that and wait for us to sign an "Eriksen replacement", we'll be waiting forever. The next Eriksen will come, fail and move on. Never mind that when Eriksen truly shone we had two of the best ball playing centre backs around.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

How do you get those deep line breaking moves?

Option A: Give him the ball. Little movement around him, opposition settled in their defensive setup based on where the ball is. Ask him to produce absolute magic to break the lines.

Option B: Move the ball with some sort of pace and purpose in the team, some actual movement ahead of him (not just runs in behind) then when some space opens up have him do his thing.

He can produce in option A, but not with the required frequency, and the risk will probably be unacceptable. The number of players that can create in that scenario with a good enough frequency with acceptable risk is miniscule. The players that can do that and defend well enough for that role... Pedri? Maybe...

He wasn't even the deepest midfielder, the one responsible for helping out with the initial buildup play, that was Hojbjerg. Along with our entire back line and Lloris they looked incapable of moving the ball with pace and purpose. Keep doing that and wait for us to sign an "Eriksen replacement", we'll be waiting forever. The next Eriksen will come, fail and move on. Never mind that when Eriksen truly shone we had two of the best ball playing centre backs around.

He wasnt anything yesterday. what is he?
What is it you see in him that means we should persevere with him when so far his has shown that unless it’s in his terms (whatever they are) we are not seeing a player good enough to start for this team?

 

[glasgowspur]

He wasnt anything yesterday. what is he?
What is it you see in him that means we should persevere with him when so far his has shown that unless it’s in his terms (whatever they are) we are not seeing a player good enough to start for this team?

Hes never likely to be anything stuck out on the wing with nobody in the Middle.
The three goals came from our possession deep inside their half. as soon the ball turned over it was a calvary charge down the middle of the pitch.
Three times and only one tackle, and that was from harry kane. Where was the middle?
Why was there no middle?
Why did we have two players not suited to playing wide standing out wide when they were badly needed IN THE FUDGING MIDDLE?

 

[Finney Is Back]

He wasnt anything yesterday. what is he?
What is it you see in him that means we should persevere with him when so far his has shown that unless it’s in his terms (whatever they are) we are not seeing a player good enough to start for this team?

If we're going to persist with this horrible Nunoball 4-3-3 then there is no point in Ndombele being in there.... We should simply have the three best athletes in there whoever they may be. We can then smother the midfield and hope we nick games 1-0. It won't be pretty, it won't get us into any of the European spots, it won't win us any Cups but it will keep us in the PL.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Hes never likely to be anything stuck out on the wing with nobody in the Middle.
The three goals came from our possession deep inside their half. as soon the ball turned over it was a calvary charge down the middle of the pitch.
Three times and only one tackle, and that was from harry kane. Where was the middle?
Why was there no middle?
Why did we have two players not suited to playing wide standing out wide when they were badly needed IN THE FUDGING MIDDLE?

There is no middle as our central midfield player who (I assume?) should be holding is doing anything but. If Hojbjerg is not supposed to be holding then I have no idea at all how our manager thinks we can ever fail to concede numerous goals with his 4-3-3 formation giving no cover at all to the centre backs.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Hes never likely to be anything stuck out on the wing with nobody in the Middle.
The three goals came from our possession deep inside their half. as soon the ball turned over it was a calvary charge down the middle of the pitch.
Three times and only one tackle, and that was from harry kane. Where was the middle?
Why was there no middle?
Why did we have two players not suited to playing wide standing out wide when they were badly needed IN THE FUDGING MIDDLE?

They weren’t exactly wide when the ball got turned over either
The system doesn’t work

 

[glasgowspur]

They weren’t exactly wide when the ball got turned over either
The system doesn’t work

I would be surprised if the ball moved outside the width of the 18 yard box for any of the three goals.
Happens once, ok. Twice you need to change something, three times, start checking your post for a p45.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I would be surprised if the ball moved outside the width of the 18 yard box for any of the three goals.
Happens once, ok. Twice you need to change something, three times, start checking your post for a p45.

Lost me with this
As in outside of the width of the box in their attacks?

 

[StephenH]

Lost me with this
As in outside of the width of the box in their attacks?

Poor narrow defensive back line thus we made it easy for a limp Arsenal

 

[glasgowspur]

Lost me with this
As in outside of the width of the box in their attacks?

Yes, we lost the ball within the width of their box and went up the field, no balls out wide, no switch of play, straight up the huge vacant hole in the middle of the pitch and into our box and scored.
If you take a line from edge of the two 18, yard boxes, the ball never went out wider than that.
Trying hard not to remember it, because it gets worse every time, but something else just occurred to me, two of the goals were cut backs. They broke up the field and cut the ball back and still couldn't get near them.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Yes, we lost the ball within the width of their box and went up the field, no balls out wide, no switch of play, straight up the huge vacant hole in the middle of the pitch and into our box and scored.
If you take a line from edge of the two 18, yard boxes, the ball never went out wider than that.
Trying hard not to remember it, because it gets worse every time, but something else just occurred to me, two of the goals were cut backs. They broke up the field and cut the ball back and still couldn't get near them.

Yep that’s exactly what happened
Just run through the middle unchallenged and passed to unmarked runners

 

[parklane1]

Sorry he may have great skill but he is not good enough for Premership football, as some have said he would be ideal in a five a side game but he is lost here.

 

[braineclipse]

He wasnt anything yesterday. what is he?
What is it you see in him that means we should persevere with him when so far his has shown that unless it’s in his terms (whatever they are) we are not seeing a player good enough to start for this team?

Who was anything yesterday? If we're judging players based on that 45 minutes then we have to give up on 11 players.

What I see in him is what is imo blatantly obvious. A player that is capable of bypassing lines of pressure through both skill and passing. Very few players can do both of those to his level. Combined with good physical strength and some end product.

He was mostly getting the ball fairly wide left, with little space to exploit, little movement around him and few options for useful combination play. What was he supposed to do? Just start running at 2-3 Arsenal players as the deepest midfielder in his area? Try balls in behind like Dier? Make runs off the ball into the final third leaving us even more exposed when we inevitably tried a hopeful (read: hopeless) long ball?

I guess he could have just left the position he was clearly instructed to play in and do the job Hojbjerg was supposed to do?

If "his terms" is us moving the ball with a bit of pace and purpose from the back so that he can receive the ball in better positions. Yeah, we should do things on his terms.

What would you have wanted him to do in that first half?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Who was anything yesterday? If we're judging players based on that 45 minutes then we have to give up on 11 players.

What I see in him is what is imo blatantly obvious. A player that is capable of bypassing lines of pressure through both skill and passing. Very few players can do both of those to his level. Combined with good physical strength and some end product.

He was mostly getting the ball fairly wide left, with little space to exploit, little movement around him and few options for useful combination play. What was he supposed to do? Just start running at 2-3 Arsenal players as the deepest midfielder in his area? Try balls in behind like Dier? Make runs off the ball into the final third leaving us even more exposed when we inevitably tried a hopeful (read: hopeless) long ball?

I guess he could have just left the position he was clearly instructed to play in and do the job Hojbjerg was supposed to do?

If "his terms" is us moving the ball with a bit of pace and purpose from the back so that he can receive the ball in better positions. Yeah, we should do things on his terms.

What would you have wanted him to do in that first half?

Come for the ball
Take charge
Use his talent
Show a bit of gravitas

 

[braineclipse]

Come for the ball
Take charge
Use his talent
Show a bit of gravitas

Some of that would be valid criticism had he played as the central midfielder in the three. If Nuno wanted him to take charge and come for the ball switch him with Hojbjerg, easy fix.

The rest would be valid criticism if we ever moved the ball to him in a useful way.

He mostly got the ball wide left, with Arsenal fully organised, that was easy for them because we moved the ball poorly. He got the ball in situations where using his talent, showing gravitas would be too high risk with not enough reward. The kind of thing he got criticism for on here after the Wolves game.

Move the ball quicker, find Ndombele in situations where he can do his thing, he will do his thing. Like we did after the break, though that was mostly down to Arsenal sitting deeper.

Least of our problems. Take him out, nothing is fixed. Improve our buildup play and keep him in he will deliver.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Some of that would be valid criticism had he played as the central midfielder in the three. If Nuno wanted him to take charge and come for the ball switch him with Hojbjerg, easy fix.

The rest would be valid criticism if we ever moved the ball to him in a useful way.

He mostly got the ball wide left, with Arsenal fully organised, that was easy for them because we moved the ball poorly. He got the ball in situations where using his talent, showing gravitas would be too high risk with not enough reward. The kind of thing he got criticism for on here after the Wolves game.

Move the ball quicker, find Ndombele in situations where he can do his thing, he will do his thing. Like we did after the break, though that was mostly down to Arsenal sitting deeper.

Least of our problems. Take him out, nothing is fixed. Improve our buildup play and keep him in he will deliver.

I actually think take him out or keep him in… playing 4-3-3 doesn’t work full stop
Tanguy can play. But Tanguy can also have no affect on the game (as you mention)
I’m happy for him to play CM with skipp of Hojdjberg, in a 2.
The 3 just doenst work
Poch was trying to get it to work IMO alongside his failing diamond set up. We do. Not have players with the right mix

 

[braineclipse]

I actually think take him out or keep him in… playing 4-3-3 doesn’t work full stop
Tanguy can play. But Tanguy can also have no affect on the game (as you mention)
I’m happy for him to play CM with skipp of Hojdjberg, in a 2.
The 3 just doenst work
Poch was trying to get it to work IMO alongside his failing diamond set up. We do. Not have players with the right mix

For me. 3 in midfield. 2 in midfield. 3 at the back. Back 4. Doesn't really matter. A change of formation doesn't change the underlying issues.

Either way if we try to just sit back and counter attack a competent manager should be able to make us fairly solid, and we have players with or without Ndombele that can be good on the break. That will fall short in the end, and Nuno will live or die on his ability to make us better at creating chances in other phases of play.

To create chances in other phases of play, Ndombele could be a massive part of that. But with him or without him we'll have to improve our buildup play. Against low to mid blocks, against a high press. It has to start deep, centre backs, whoever the deeper central midfielder is. Again, numerical formation doesn't matter much. You can be great at buildup play in a 4-3-3, you can be great at it in a 4-2-3-1, back three, whatever. And equally poor.

Player selection matters. We're several years and two CB signings past finding out that Sanchez and Dier isn't the answer.

Working on a buildup structure and buildup play matters. I've been told enough times that it's too early to expect improvements in that area, so... Wait until Christmas to see what happens?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

For me. 3 in midfield. 2 in midfield. 3 at the back. Back 4. Doesn't really matter. A change of formation doesn't change the underlying issues.

Either way if we try to just sit back and counter attack a competent manager should be able to make us fairly solid, and we have players with or without Ndombele that can be good on the break. That will fall short in the end, and Nuno will live or die on his ability to make us better at creating chances in other phases of play.

To create chances in other phases of play, Ndombele could be a massive part of that. But with him or without him we'll have to improve our buildup play. Against low to mid blocks, against a high press. It has to start deep, centre backs, whoever the deeper central midfielder is. Again, numerical formation doesn't matter much. You can be great at buildup play in a 4-3-3, you can be great at it in a 4-2-3-1, back three, whatever. And equally poor.

Player selection matters. We're several years and two CB signings past finding out that Sanchez and Dier isn't the answer.

Working on a buildup structure and buildup play matters. I've been told enough times that it's too early to expect improvements in that area, so... Wait until Christmas to see what happens?

Certainly we should wait until Christmas
See my post in the Nuno thread about Pochs start
I agree Tanguy is about build up play
It’s why he doesn’t work as a 10 for me as he doesn’t have the space to play. It’s why Moussa didn’t make it as a forward with his attributes

 

[braineclipse]

Certainly we should wait until Christmas
See my post in the Nuno thread about Pochs start
I agree Tanguy is about build up play
It’s why he doesn’t work as a 10 for me as he doesn’t have the space to play. It’s why Moussa didn’t make it as a forward with his attributes

We can't do much other than wait. Rome wasn't built in a day, but I do believe it was built brick by brick, day by day.

No one can just instill good buildup play into our team in a matter of weeks. But if there isn't progress then it won't all of a sudden happen either.

Tanguy can do a lot of things. Probably won't have the consistency of end product you'd like from a #10, but then again not like we have a lot of other players with a lot of end product in that role. Some of his other attributes are very well suited to a #10 role. But I prefer him deeper.

 

[Bullet]

Tanguy is absolutely elite at certain things, the system should focus on him doing those things. Beating a man, threading a pass, holding off a challenge, scoring incredible goals e.g. the overhead flick last year.
He should not be expected to do the things he is bad at.
Nearly EVERY player is good at some things and very bad at others.

E.g. He looked really great against Wolves whilst being culpable for their goals.