Service to Striker Tactics

[Raziel]

Ade has reverted to MkII
Soldado just can't score
Kane scores mostly when he's playing as deeper striker

Looking at all the transfer rumour threads, thinking about if we bought someone like Bony, would he fit our setup (everyone likes to point out Swansea is set up for him), I started thinking ..

- How are we setup for our strikers to score goals?
- What is the main tactic Poch thinks is going to deliver service, how and to who?

Right now it seems Chadli/Eriksen/Kane are our goal options, and all play coming from a more midfield position (both goals yesterday we had players more forward dragging the defenders, leaving that pocket of space)

What is our tactic to get the front striker to score? (am I missing it, or do we just not have a predictable play?)

And how is the next striker going to work if we don't?

 

[glasgowspur]

as I see it, at the start of the season that 3 behind ade looked good and we were all excited about it. the final ball just never seemed to work and it was the same story for soldado in the EL. downside was we were cack in defence. no tracking back, no support and no protection.
we looked like three separate units, def,mid and front.
now the front three track back and defence is more solid but we have lost the fluency at the front. its more like two separate units not joined.

answer? beats me. more pace would help but to my eye mason, bentaleb, eriksen and lamella need more defined roles or more positional discipline. I'm sure any of three cfs could score goals in a system that suits them, is poch going to play that system though? we are still a work in progress and I can see bits start to come together but its slow. doesn't help that we have so many games and such little time on the training field or that poch seems to want to try everyone out. the last two could and probably are connected.

replacement cf, I liked bony but probably to much money now. don't fancy lukaku or benteke.

 

[Raziel]

but lets talk about that .. don't watch Swansea that much but seemed to me

- get the ball out wide to pace, back into Bony with Siggy in the space behind

What's our tactic? have 5 players try to pass their way through the middle?

 

[Charlie]

We played high line so there is usually space behind the backline to exploit. The other (smaller) teams generally don't play high line so there is no space and we have to play through the middle.

 

[braineclipse]

At Southampton Poch had Lambert who is big and strong, but also good along the ground and fairly clever (imo). They gave him fairly varied service from what I remember. They could play through the middle fairly quickly, some long direct balls and some crosses.

I think he wanted something similar for us with Ade and that was why he was so patient with him earlier this season.

The problems we're seeing have been present with the current team essentially since Modric left (imo). Bale helped us out massively first season under AVB and we really struggled to create clear cut chances. That continued in his second season. We were better with a firing Ade under Sherwood, but we also looked very open as we played very attacking central midfield combinations to compensate. (All of this imo, not looking to restart another AVB or Sherwood discussion. Just reasoning behind my opinion that the current problems are not new and is something we've struggled with for a long time).

In short I think he wants to have varied approaches.

but lets talk about that .. don't watch Swansea that much but seemed to me

- get the ball out wide to pace, back into Bony with Siggy in the space behind

What's our tactic? have 5 players try to pass their way through the middle?

What Swansea primarily did well was find Siggy in space I thought. He was excellent once again because they gave him the right service. He then helped provide the service to the wide men and of course to Bony.

They have been good at this for a long time. Very good passers in central midfield and at the back, capable of playing with tempo and finding the right passes into the final third when there's a bit of space to exploit for their attacking midfield trio.

I think Poch wants something similar. We've signed defenders that are better on the ball, as well as Stambouli that i think looks rather useful on the ball. We've played younger players with more technical ability like Mason and Bentaleb looking to up our passing tempo to feed the right passes into the final third that we've been missing for so long. The passes Sig didn't get when he struggled with us, the reason he looks so much better at Swansea.

But this kind of thing does take time. We're relying on young and settling players to make things a bit harder. But to me at least there are signs of improvement.

 

[glasgowspur]

but lets talk about that .. don't watch Swansea that much but seemed to me

- get the ball out wide to pace, back into Bony with Siggy in the space behind

What's our tactic? have 5 players try to pass their way through the middle?

it would seem to be. in these types of game anyway. we were poor yesterday and got away with it.
I had hoped that having walker going on the outside might mean more space/options for lamella but the early yellow card took the edge of walkers game. he had to be more conservative after that. not much pace on other side though and that seems a uneven to me.

 

[Finney Is Back]

We played high line so there is usually space behind the backline to exploit. The other (smaller) teams generally don't play high line so there is no space and we have to play through the middle.

Why do we have to play through the middle when a team doesn't play a high line against us? Surely in that situation it is just as advantageous to play with width to create more space in the middle and ensure that you aren't always crowded out?

 

[Modric THFC]

Attack as a unit.
Couldn't gave a **** which of them scores.

The whole point of the narrow 4231 is the 4 are all in positions to be threats on goal.

Or we could have Lennon playing wide left trying to cross it into soldado all game in a packed box !!!!

 

[Jurgen the German]

Ade has reverted to MkII
Soldado just can't score
Kane scores mostly when he's playing as deeper striker

Looking at all the transfer rumour threads, thinking about if we bought someone like Bony, would he fit our setup (everyone likes to point out Swansea is set up for him), I started thinking ..

- How are we setup for our strikers to score goals?
- What is the main tactic Poch thinks is going to deliver service, how and to who?

Right now it seems Chadli/Eriksen/Kane are our goal options, and all play coming from a more midfield position (both goals yesterday we had players more forward dragging the defenders, leaving that pocket of space)

What is our tactic to get the front striker to score? (am I missing it, or do we just not have a predictable play?)

And how is the next striker going to work if we don't?

Beats me. I would guess the 3 midfielders behind are supposed to link up with Soldado and play intricate passes through a packed defence. That's not a sarcastic response.

Who knows? Maybe it's his plan for Soldado/Ade to "create space" like Ade did for Bale :-"

 

[Cochise]

In possession we go 2431

The back four and central midfielders knock the ball around in an attempt to commit 2-3 of the opposition players, with one of our midfielders or CB's eventually advancing with the ball.
Eriksen and Lamela stay narrow and aim to outnumber the remaining opponents in midfield. The striker occasionally does go wide and we have seen the player at #10 (Kane/Paulinho/Chadli) advance into the space.
Our fullbacks aim to get into the spaces left by the opponent fullbacks who either go narrow to compact the middle or come in with their winger. (Mason switches out to the left quite often for Rose and Davies).
Quick one touch passing follows with the idea of releasing one of the three behind the striker into the space in front of the opposition back four.

....and that's it.

I'd say from the games I've watched we do get to this last phase quite a bit, but we rarely get there with anywhere near the numbers we should nor at pace. Quite often the ball carrier only has Soldado in advance of them with the prospect of facing 3-4 defenders. The moves also break down earlier on due to players being dispossesed whilst dribbling and then we just end up passing it around 20 yards out side to side in an attempt to get a shot off centrally from a clever lay off from a front man.
The other problem is that against those teams who sit deep like Palace, the work in that first phase seems to only pull one player out of formation (Chamakh) and he kept going all afternoon.

I actually think Jurgen has hit the tickle my balls with a feather. Lamela, Eriksen and Mason are all players who like to play in a quick one touch pass and go style. Quite often this season we have almost engineered chances in this manner, with just the last pass being misplaced. I recall against Everton we created a move from front to back where Kane picked the wrong final ball to Soldado. Had he played it to Lamela then we may have found a third.

 

[NaijaSpurs]

We played high line so there is usually space behind the backline to exploit. The other (smaller) teams generally don't play high line so there is no space and we have to play through the middle.

It would help if we actually played with some natural width

 

[NaijaSpurs]

When I consider the number of guilt edge chances that Soldado has missed I reject the view that we do not create enough chances for our strikers. I think we just need someone who can finish better. It seems Soldado has gone the way of Torres at Chelsea and has lost his magic touch when he came to Spurs

 

[Roland Beurre]

When I consider the number of gilt edge chances that Soldado has missed I reject the view that we do not create enough chances for our strikers. I think we just need someone who can finish better. It seems Soldado has gone the way of Torres at Chelsea and has lost his magic touch when he came to Spurs

He has missed a lot of gilt-edged chances but, boy, does he need a bit of luck. For example, Bony's shot was going wide before it hit Fazio and bounced right in front of him, begging to be lashed in.

A nice mis-hit scuffer going in the wrong corner tonight against the Toon from Soldado would go down a treat.

 

[Raziel]

When I consider the number of guilt edge chances that Soldado has missed I reject the view that we do not create enough chances for our strikers. I think we just need someone who can finish better. It seems Soldado has gone the way of Torres at Chelsea and has lost his magic touch when he came to Spurs

So in no way defending Soldado's misses .. but part of my question is

- Is our service to him predictable? like does he know if he makes a certain run he's going to get a certain ball?

And while today he won a rebound, both with him and Kane, I'm not sure there is a predictable delivery for them to work with/expect

 

[metalgear]

our centre mids don't do enough
i'd expect a lot more passes to the channels or between the CBs for the striker to attack the dead space towards goal

 

[Raziel]

our centre mids don't do enough
i'd expect a lot more passes to the channels or between the CBs for the striker to attack the dead space towards goal

I come back to the need for a plan ..

You watch a youtube videos of strikers who score a lot of goals (including Bale's time with us), and quite a few of the goals are almost copies of each other, same side, same angle, etc.

If you can make a plan to produce a predictable level of service, it will allow your striker to be more likely to be in the right place, vs. creating a completely different opportunity each time.

 

[metalgear]

I come back to the need for a plan ..

You watch a youtube videos of strikers who score a lot of goals (including Bale's time with us), and quite a few of the goals are almost copies of each other, same side, same angle, etc.

If you can make a plan to produce a predictable level of service, it will allow your striker to be more likely to be in the right place, vs. creating a completely different opportunity each time.

I don't disagree. We also need variations in attack. Maybe this will come once there's less chopping and changing and an understanding between players can be built.

 

[braineclipse]

I come back to the need for a plan ..

You watch a youtube videos of strikers who score a lot of goals (including Bale's time with us), and quite a few of the goals are almost copies of each other, same side, same angle, etc.

If you can make a plan to produce a predictable level of service, it will allow your striker to be more likely to be in the right place, vs. creating a completely different opportunity each time.

I agree. This takes time to develop though.

The last time we arguably had that was when that predictable service was giving the ball to Bale anywhere near the box and let him do his thing. It's significantly harder without that world class attacking player to depend on.

I think there are real signs of us trying. Bentaleb, Mason and hopefully Stambouli are capable of much quicker and more accurate passing than their recent predecessors. Players we're seemingly going for seem similarly capable. We've signed Ben Davies, Fazio and Dier at the back. All are good on the ball, in my opinion all better on the ball than the players they replaced. This should give us the opportunity to get a quicker tempo passing game going to feed better service in to our attacking midfielders/forwards, giving them the conditions where they can provide better service to our strikers. As one route of somewhat predictable attacking play.

 

[Raziel]

I agree. This takes time to develop though.

The last time we arguably had that was when that predictable service was giving the ball to Bale anywhere near the box and let him do his thing. It's significantly harder without that world class attacking player to depend on.

I think there are real signs of us trying. Bentaleb, Mason and hopefully Stambouli are capable of much quicker and more accurate passing than their recent predecessors. Players we're seemingly going for seem similarly capable. We've signed Ben Davies, Fazio and Dier at the back. All are good on the ball, in my opinion all better on the ball than the players they replaced. This should give us the opportunity to get a quicker tempo passing game going to feed better service in to our attacking midfielders/forwards, giving them the conditions where they can provide better service to our strikers. As one route of somewhat predictable attacking play.

It does, my big concern with Poch was/is, "what is the basis for that plan?" e.g. you mention the Bale era, to me that plan was get the ball to Modric as quickly as possible, who then got it mostly to Bale, but alternatively to Lennon, so we used pace/width (heavy emphasis on counter attack) and our strikers/forward midfield would have room to move into. System struggled a little when teams just sat 11 deep not allowing the counter, but functionally it was there.

I look at us now, and most games we are simply trying to pass/bully our way through a very narrow space in the middle, and functionally the opposition just squeezes the back line together and kills a lot of our play.

 

[braineclipse]

It does, my big concern with Poch was/is, "what is the basis for that plan?" e.g. you mention the Bale era, to me that plan was get the ball to Modric as quickly as possible, who then got it mostly to Bale, but alternatively to Lennon, so we used pace/width (heavy emphasis on counter attack) and our strikers/forward midfield would have room to move into. System struggled a little when teams just sat 11 deep not allowing the counter, but functionally it was there.

I look at us now, and most games we are simply trying to pass/bully our way through a very narrow space in the middle, and functionally the opposition just squeezes the back line together and kills a lot of our play.

That was more the Modric era than the Bale era for me. Bale era was after Modric left and Bale (imo) carried us. Modric was and is outstanding, and for us not someone we can replace without developing talented players into better players and even then it's a big ask.

I think we've looked decent on the break. Certainly against Everton and Chelsea (admittedly only for 20 minutes), but also against Arsenal. Fewer teams give us the chance to counter attack and we haven't had the ability or fortune to get the lead that gives us that against teams that prefer sitting back. We did yesterday and it changed the game and we looked very good.

I think we're moving in the right direction against organized teams though. It's one of the hardest things to do in football though.