Re-assessing our aims for the season

[Armchair Expert]

Chadli had a great chance after the free kick. We didn't get our long shots on target, but we looked a lot more likely to get 2-0 than Saudi Sportswashing Machine looked to get an equalizer after our initial leading goal.

Mason is keeping Dembele and Paulinho out of the side. Players with double digit international caps for Belgium and Brazil.

We have a lot of quality in our squad. We're lacking a bit of balance and we're lacking some experience. But at the same time we have a lot of talented young players gaining a lot of experience. And I think that will do us a lot of good in the future.

I do hope you're right on the positive note. I'm willing to let this season be a bit dire and gritty if it helps us long term. There are problems that need sorting and it might take a while.

Fair enough, seems we just have different views on the quality of player we have. I mean, we can talk about Paulinho's Brazil caps, but we all know he is shiit. I'd play Dembele over Capoue without a shadow of a doubt. At least he brings a touch of dynamism with him.

Its hard to deny that our lack of quality in the centre of the park is quite shameful really. Where do you see the quality in the squad? Which players?

 

[braineclipse]

Fair enough, seems we just have different views on the quality of player we have. I mean, we can talk about Paulinho's Brazil caps, but we all know he is shiit. I'd play Dembele over Capoue without a shadow of a doubt. At least he brings a touch of dynamism with him.

Its hard to deny that our lack of quality in the centre of the park is quite shameful really. Where do you see the quality in the squad? Which players?

Are you just angry and upset looking for a moan or are you looking to discuss things?

You bring up the fact that Mason is an academy product and only making this 3rd appearance as a reason to be negative about him starting. I then talk about the players he's keeping out that have a lot more starts and are regular internationals that is all of a sudden irrelevant because we know one of them is ****? Well, by the same logic it doesn't matter that Mason is an academy product (it really doesn't) or that he only has 3 starts...

I was going on this summer (again) that we need a creative central/deep midfielder. I was hoping for Schneiderlin, there were a few possible other options. We didn't get one and we're left with Mason and Bentaleb. It's clearly a problem area, but at the same time Mason has done quite well. He definitely wasn't the problem yesterday.

But if you're just looking for a moan and a whinge I'm sorry, my bad for bothering to answer your post.

 

[Armchair Expert]

Are you just angry and upset looking for a moan or are you looking to discuss things?

You bring up the fact that Mason is an academy product and only making this 3rd appearance as a reason to be negative about him starting. I then talk about the players he's keeping out that have a lot more starts and are regular internationals that is all of a sudden irrelevant because we know one of them is ****? Well, by the same logic it doesn't matter that Mason is an academy product (it really doesn't) or that he only has 3 starts...

I was going on this summer (again) that we need a creative central/deep midfielder. I was hoping for Schneiderlin, there were a few possible other options. We didn't get one and we're left with Mason and Bentaleb. It's clearly a problem area, but at the same time Mason has done quite well. He definitely wasn't the problem yesterday.

But if you're just looking for a moan and a whinge I'm sorry, my bad for bothering to answer your post.

No, no I was genuinely interested in your thoughts on the matter. I agree Mason is looking promising, but the fact he is an unknown quantity at the top level and yet commands a starting birth in a midfield 2, means that predictions of us finishing 6th (i think thats what you predicted) seem overly optiimistic, based on what we have seen and the quality of player at our disposal. I'm not negative about Mason starting, I just think its indicative of the slump in quality in our squad. A few years ago we finished 5th with a midfield of Modric, Bale, Parker/SAndro, Lennon and vdV; I see no reason to think a midfield duo of Capoue and Mason will in anyway achieve a similiar finish.

We desparately needed, as you say a ball playing deep lying midfielder, but imo to play Capoue's role. We don't have anyone who can do it.

As for the international caps thing, it is irrelevant. Paulinho has been an unmitigated disaster for us. Whether he played well two years ago in the Confeds Cup is neither here nor there. He's woeful for Tottenham.

I don't see where the quality is in the squad that you're referring to. Lennon, Towsend, Chadli, Capoue, Rose, Dier, Kaboul, Chiriches, Soldado (doesn't score looks a decent footballer), Adebayor, Stambouli etc are they quality players? Looks very Sunderland-esq to me. I don't see Bentaleb, Mason etc as being better than what Villa, West Brom etc have to offer. Even the likes of Lamela and Eriksen based on their Spurs' careers wouldn't get a look in at other top half teams, yet they, Lamela especially, seems to be the great white hope.

Harry Kane looks very promising and should, imo, be starting; but in terms of top 6 is he better than Falcao, Lukaku, Giroud, Sturridge etc. Those are the teams competing for top 6. I don't think so, not yet.

The prospect of having a team brimming with academy prospects is exciting, but in the short term is going to be miles off a top six finish, hence the re-assessing our aims for the season. I just can't see how a 12th place finished, for example, is any less likely than a 6th place. I genuinely think we have a poor team with some decent prospects from the academy.

 

[braineclipse]

No, no I was genuinely interested in your thoughts on the matter. I agree Mason is looking promising, but the fact he is an unknown quantity at the top level and yet commands a starting birth in a midfield 2, means that predictions of us finishing 6th (i think thats what you predicted) seem overly optiimistic, based on what we have seen and the quality of player at our disposal. I'm not negative about Mason starting, I just think its indicative of the slump in quality in our squad. A few years ago we finished 5th with a midfield of Modric, Bale, Parker/SAndro, Lennon and vdV; I see no reason to think a midfield duo of Capoue and Mason will in anyway achieve a similiar finish.

We desparately needed, as you say a ball playing deep lying midfielder, but imo to play Capoue's role. We don't have anyone who can do it.

As for the international caps thing, it is irrelevant. Paulinho has been an unmitigated disaster for us. Whether he played well two years ago in the Confeds Cup is neither here nor there. He's woeful for Tottenham.

I don't see where the quality is in the squad that you're referring to. Lennon, Towsend, Chadli, Capoue, Rose, Dier, Kaboul, Chiriches, Soldado (doesn't score looks a decent footballer), Adebayor, Stambouli etc are they quality players? Looks very Sunderland-esq to me. I don't see Bentaleb, Mason etc as being better than what Villa, West Brom etc have to offer. Even the likes of Lamela and Eriksen based on their Spurs' careers wouldn't get a look in at other top half teams, yet they, Lamela especially, seems to be the great white hope.

Harry Kane looks very promising and should, imo, be starting; but in terms of top 6 is he better than Falcao, Lukaku, Giroud, Sturridge etc. Those are the teams competing for top 6. I don't think so, not yet.

The prospect of having a team brimming with academy prospects is exciting, but in the short term is going to be miles off a top six finish, hence the re-assessing our aims for the season. I just can't see how a 12th place finished, for example, is any less likely than a 6th place. I genuinely think we have a poor team with some decent prospects from the academy.

If international caps are irrelevant, why is number of PL starts relevant?

We're not as good as we were with Modric, Bale etc. We're rebuilding for sure. I disagree with your ratings on a lot of our players, but I don't have time to go into details right now.

 

[Jurgen the German]

That's indifference. We have active hostility. It's more like playing away at Galatasaray every other week for them.

It is not indifference in the slightest. Arsenal fans booed Eboue to the point where he started crying. West Ham have various songs aimed at their own players "if you're sat in row z" and have been on Big Sam's back for the duration of his time, and where are they in the league now GB?

You just seem to think if the atmosphere improves, then Ade will magically start to play like a striker and the likes of Chiriches, Kaboul, Lamela etc will all up their games and stop making costly mistakes. It's a drop in the ocean and far, far exaggerated by the likes of you. Not saying the atmosphere is good btw, but it doesn't stop other teams from winning.

 

[Gutter Boy]

It is not indifference in the slightest. Arsenal fans booed Eboue to the point where he started crying. West Ham have various songs aimed at their own players "if you're sat in row z" and have been on Big Sam's back for the duration of his time, and where are they in the league now GB?

You just seem to think if the atmosphere improves, then Ade will magically start to play like a striker and the likes of Chirices, Kaboul, Lamela etc will all up their games and stop making costly mistakes. It's a drop in the ocean and far, far exaggerated by the likes of you. Not saying the atmosphere is good btw, but it doesn't stop other teams from winning.

Fear is exactly the reason they do that. That possibly combined with their fitness not being up to standard yet

 

[Jurgen the German]

Fear is exactly the reason they do that. That possibly combined with their fitness not being up to standard yet

Ok then, Chriches really is a decent player, it's just the crowd that scare him.

Quite a large number of the individual mistakes we made last season came on the round e.g. 3 at Chelsea. Lamela's two howlers were both away from home this season.

 

[Kingdawson]

Ok then, Chriches really is a decent player, it's just the crowd that scare him.

Quite a large number of the individual mistakes we made last season came on the round e.g. 3 at Chelsea. Lamela's two howlers were both away from home this season.

Does decent now mean garbage? if so i agree.

 

[a spur from swansea]

We've gone back to so far i'm going to start wearing my Pony kit again.....our transfer policy in the last four years has been abysmal,we all knew Bale was going to go and to get 80 mill was job well done but we've ****ed so much up against the wall its unbelievable ,we let Huddlestone and Livermore go,are Campoe or Paulinho better than them,theirs £25 million there,we needed a striker,so we spent over a year looking to get one in and buy one where we don't play to his strengths,another £27 million there.Caulker/Dawson are the ones we bought in any better?? We needed a Modric type of player (Eriksen)and then play him out left for most of a season but at least he's worked his guts out and has become one of our better players, a plus there.
We've needed a right back for the last two years and now rely on a twenty year old whose only experience is in the Portugese league and is starting to struggle now.Our squad is now so much of bits and pieces, no flow what so ever,out of form players replacing out of form players.

I hope our silent chairman gives our manager carte blanche in getting rid of players he doesn't need now and get players in who are young and hungry,forget this season or least aim to compete with most of the top five sides in the majority of games i.e no more four,five nil spankings please.

Like i said we're back to where we were in the mid 2000,a mish mash of a side,no direction what so ever and i thought those days were long gone after we beat AC Milan in the San Siro unbelievable....

 

[Kingdawson]

My opinions are as follows:

1) Kaboul is long past it (i think we are all in agreement here)

2) Paulinho, Chiriches and Soldado for a combined 50m plus...why does our DOF still have a job? (lets not go on about the DIRECTOR OF FOOTBALL possibly not being to blame for PLAYER TRANSFERS please)

3) Capoue has poor positional play for a DM. Him and Mason will never work in a midfield 2 imo (Mason's future imo is further forward).

4) The 3 behind the striker need to provide far more. Eriksen should be on the left of the 3 at all times.

5) This season is probably a write off (again).

 

[Seedy Ron]

Quite a large number of the individual mistakes we made last season came on the round e.g. 3 at Chelsea. Lamela's two howlers were both away from home this season.

Flash backs to White Hart Lane, innit? :special:

 

[Gutter Boy]

Ok then, Chriches really is a decent player, it's just the crowd that scare him.

Quite a large number of the individual mistakes we made last season came on the round e.g. 3 at Chelsea. Lamela's two howlers were both away from home this season.

I don't think Chiriches is a bad player at all. He had some really good games last year, and then had a howler on his first game back after an injury.

Fear fills your body with adrenaline, which makes you make rash decisions. Even poor teams never go into paralysis like we do, because they can take the psychological position having of nothing to lose. We always start walking a tightrope.

Good point about Lamela's and others errors being away, although obviously we are still unbeaten on the road save for City (so mistakes seemingly aren't proving fatal)

 

[Gutter Boy]

We've gone back to so far i'm going to start wearing my Pony kit again.....our transfer policy in the last four years has been abysmal,we all knew Bale was going to go and to get 80 mill was job well done but we've ****ed so much up against the wall its unbelievable ,we let Huddlestone and Livermore go,are Campoe or Paulinho better than them,theirs £25 million there,we needed a striker,so we spent over a year looking to get one in and buy one where we don't play to his strengths,another £27 million there.Caulker/Dawson are the ones we bought in any better?? We needed a Modric type of player (Eriksen)and then play him out left for most of a season but at least he's worked his guts out and has become one of our better players, a plus there.
We've needed a right back for the last two years and now rely on a twenty year old whose only experience is in the Portugese league and is starting to struggle now.Our squad is now so much of bits and pieces, no flow what so ever,out of form players replacing out of form players.

I hope our silent chairman gives our manager carte blanche in getting rid of players he doesn't need now and get players in who are young and hungry,forget this season or least aim to compete with most of the top five sides in the majority of games i.e no more four,five nil spankings please.

Like i said we're back to where we were in the mid 2000,a mish mash of a side,no direction what so ever and i thought those days were long gone after we beat AC Milan in the San Siro unbelievable....

So Modric didn't have a season of acclimatising playing on the left then?

And a RB? Kyle Walker was our player of the season last year. We've got 2 players out injured out of our 27-ish man squad, and freakishly they are our two RBs.

We've also got the youngest squad in the league (Ade and Vorm are our only players in their 30s), so replacing them with 'young and hungry' players would be a very odd thing to do.

Every team comes to an end and need overhauling. The team Arnesen and Comolli built, which Redknapp enjoyed, got old or went galactico. We are in the same place we were in in 2004, but it's an inevitable cycle. It's also where United are, Liverpool recently were, and Arsenal and Chelsea are trying to deny entering.

My opinions are as follows:

1) Kaboul is long past it (i think we are all in agreement here)

2) Paulinho, Chiriches and Soldado for a combined 50m plus...why does our DOF still have a job? (lets not go on about the DIRECTOR OF FOOTBALL possibly not being to blame for PLAYER TRANSFERS please)

3) Capoue has poor positional play for a DM. Him and Mason will never work in a midfield 2 imo (Mason's future imo is further forward).

4) The 3 behind the striker need to provide far more. Eriksen should be on the left of the 3 at all times.

5) This season is probably a write off (again).

I really like Capoue-Mason. It's the first time since Modric-Sandro that we've had a combination of resilience and the ability to transition the ball quickly. I think there's a lot of promise in that partnership.

I think the quartet of Eriksen, Lamela, Chadli and Soldado need to be given time (with Kane contributing too). City was our most promising attacking performance in about 2 years. Ade is too static for that AM trio.

I still think anything below 2nd is up for grabs. There's also all 3 cups. We're only going to get stronger as the system beds in

 

[Kingdawson]

How is Capoue and Mason resilient? we've conceded 7 goals in 4 games since they've become a pairing. It's crimianl that you put them in the same sentence as the Sandro and Luka partnership (or Parker and Luka for that matter).

 

[Russd]

Well Im back after a couple of years away from GG but have been lurking since and was previously Lillywhiteyid...

This is how I see it in my humble opinion for what its worth.. Firstly I don't think things are as bad as they appear however we do need some continuity and serious plan... The hopes for this season need to be a decent crack at the Europa, FA or Capital One Cups and establishing a team a playing style and letting the kids and new players adapt to England and the Premier League..

This whole problem dates back years back to 'Arrys days.. Ive seen so many "bring back harry" all over social media since yesterday but he started all this with an ageing and average squad that was good in an average Premier League but if Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Everton & City where the teams they now, Harry wouldn't be the messiah that so many people think he is.. Also while we have worked to a tight budget over the years others have streaked ahead in terms playing staff. Add that losing Modric, Bale and VDV in the last 2 years has given us major problems.. But above all else our problem is we don't have a LEADER, we haven't since King retired in all honesty.. Daws was a top bloke gave everything but is he a Roy Keane a Viera or Kompany in terms of leading a team probably not.. Prime example the equaliser yesterday Dier was late out what ever the reason, Kaboul should have been on his case like no bodies business but he wasn't he was high fiving as the game kicks off, put aside if you rate Kaboul as a player or not that is not captain material.

We have a massive squad and we are top heavy on players who are good squad players but will they take us that step further, honestly I don't think they will with the exception of one or 2.. We do need a slow and gradual overhaul of the squad I think there's in the region of 10 players that can move on without causing to many issues and another 4/5 that need to adapt or see them in the same boat..

I would give Poch time he needs to implement his style and work with a squad that's under a lot of pressure and been through so much change over time and they don't become bad players overnight but that being said we need to see improvement in by the end of Jan plus a couple of decent players in the transfer window.. It took him 9 months to get Soton playing well with a worse group of players than we have here so Im sure he can do it again but its do the players have the heart and commitment to do so which is more of my concern...

 

[AdamB]

finish the season with the same manager that started it

back him in January

Agree. Back him this season and give him time. Judge him next season. For the fans, take the season off and do something more productive

 

[clevelandspur]

same as start of season for me. don't see top 4 as realistic possibility but I want to see us play good attacking football and go for it in all the cup competitions! We are traditionally a cup side anyway and who knows with a bit of luck maybe we can win a trophy?

 

[Jurgen the German]

I don't think Chiriches is a bad player at all. He had some really good games last year, and then had a howler on his first game back after an injury.

Fear fills your body with adrenaline, which makes you make rash decisions. Even poor teams never go into paralysis like we do, because they can take the psychological position having of nothing to lose. We always start walking a tightrope.

Good point about Lamela's and others errors being away, although obviously we are still unbeaten on the road save for City (so mistakes seemingly aren't proving fatal)

Surely that's more to do with the fact that teams come at us more when we play away rather than the crowd? It's not a ground breaking concept, plenty of sides try and keep it tight on the road against top 6-8 opposition and look to frustrate the crowd, also the away team grows more in confidence the longer they are in the game.

I am not defending the atmosphere and am not ruling it out entirely, but I think it's the least of our problems, basically we need to look at a) the players, b) the tactics of the manager(s) over the last 5 years or so. c) the choice of players from the DOF. I have given numerous specific examples of teams winning at home with crap atmospheres and how personal fans' insults can get towards their own players. Stoke would win the league every season if it really did come down to who has the best crowd.

 

[Raziel]

Poch wasn't outsmarted. It was a poor mistake from Dier. After that I'd put it down to the players. Dier had a shocker in that second half. It could be as simple as that.

But isn't that the manager, Dier was struggling most of the game, and also wasn't proving any width (which we need the FB to do based on Chadli/Lamela cutting in and narrowing us).

Add the fact that Lamela himself was having an ineffective game, it was crying out for an early sub, especially once we conceded the equalizer and they were obviously targeting Dier.

Fact is, Poch did nothing to protect Dier, did nothing address the width issue, did nothing to address Lamela/Ade's poor day at the office, by time he made his subs, the game was over.

 

[Gutter Boy]

But isn't that the manager, Dier was struggling most of the game, and also wasn't proving any width (which we need the FB to do based on Chadli/Lamela cutting in and narrowing us).

Add the fact that Lamela himself was having an ineffective game, it was crying out for an early sub, especially once we conceded the equalizer and they were obviously targeting Dier.

Fact is, Poch did nothing to protect Dier, did nothing address the width issue, did nothing to address Lamela/Ade's poor day at the office, by time he made his subs, the game was over.

Both our RBs are injured. What was the alternative?

I know I've been suggesting Lennon gets tried there in a cup match, but yesterday wasn't the place for that experiment

Not resting Dier on Thursday was perhaps the mistake?