• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

Quacks & Pseudoscience

scaramanga said:
That looks interesting. When I have a little time I'll do some more digging, but there are a few bits that get my spidey sense tingling:

  • Use of laser instead of needles
    • Is this even the same theory of application?
    • The acupuncture community has a habit of bait and switch - it wasn't all that long ago that they claimed evidence which was in fact the use of TENS (actual, measurable science)
    • Despite his credentials and the good work he's done in the past with debunking, this statement couldn't be less accurate
    • He clearly lacks understanding of what scientific scepticism is - we will accept anything if there is good, verifiable evidence to prove it
    • None of the poor quality trials showed any positive effect? Really? That doesn't sit right with me for some reason
    • Isn't that a risk that only people susceptible to the placebo effect will get filtered in?
    • I assume (without further checking) that those not getting a placebo benefit will just stop getting treatment - that must skew the results somewhat
  • The magazine in which it was published
    • It's not one I've heard of, and it's certainly not one I've heard of in terms of having sound peer review
Click to expand...

It should definitely be treated with scepticism. It is an outlier from other trials which raises questions but this is a difficult treatment to test, as we have already discussed.

Ezard Ernst is normally pretty thorough and reliable. He was co-author with Simon Singh of the Guardian article that got Singh sued for libel by the British Chiropractic Association that you referred to earlier in the thread.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edzard_Ernst

I agree that this study raises loads of questions and shouldn't be taken as proof of acupuncture working but it certainly interesting and I will be looking to read more on it.
 
milo said:
It should definitely be treated with scepticism. It is an outlier from other trials which raises questions but this is a difficult treatment to test, as we have already discussed.

Ezard Ernst is normally pretty thorough and reliable. He was co-author with Simon Singh of the Guardian article that got Singh sued for libel by the British Chiropractic Association that you referred to earlier in the thread.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edzard_Ernst

I agree that this study raises loads of questions and shouldn't be taken as proof of acupuncture working but it certainly interesting and I will be looking to read more on it.
Click to expand...
Don't forget he also has a habit of fudging with people just for fun!

There's a good chance that this is just a big troll or a set up to get the quacks out from behind the parapets.
 
scaramanga said:
Don't forget he also has a habit of fudgeing with people just for fun!

There's a good chance that this is just a big troll or a set up to get the quacks out from behind the parapets.
Click to expand...

Possibly. But that blog post was from February and I have not been able to find a follow up on there since then.

Like I said, it is interesting and worth further reading on but not proof one way or the other. The balance of evidence is still overwhelmingly on the side of acupuncture have no effect beyond powerful placebo.
 
@scaramanga you asked about misalignment.

Watch this from 31 mins to 35 mins

Doctor in the House, Episode 2: www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06qqwlx via @bbciplayer

Bodybuilder. Lower class. Beaten up at 15 - broken jaw. Back pain ever since. 25 years of painkillers taken at way over recommended dosage.

This musculoskeletal therapist diagnosed him in 5 mins and helps realign his spine. It is so bloody obvious, yet this guy couldn't seem to get help. Surely a GP would have seen this problem?

Not arguing for or against, just thought it was a relevant example.
 
There's a staggering amount of people that are essentially illiterate when it comes to science and critical thinking. Furthermore the people who provide most people with scientific information (journalists) are themselves way too often in the same category.

It's a huge societal problem. For anyone interested in class struggle it's almost certainly helps maintain a class separation. For anyone interested in socioeconomic progress it's almost certainly costing our societies a ton of money. For anyone interested in minimizing human suffering it's almost certainly a huge source of suffering in the world.

I'm more and more leaning towards it being a fundamental problem that if left unresolved will make many other societal issues unsolvable.
 
scaramanga said:
That looks interesting. When I have a little time I'll do some more digging, but there are a few bits that get my spidey sense tingling:

  • Use of laser instead of needles
    • Is this even the same theory of application?
    • The acupuncture community has a habit of bait and switch - it wasn't all that long ago that they claimed evidence which was in fact the use of TENS (actual, measurable science)
    • Despite his credentials and the good work he's done in the past with debunking, this statement couldn't be less accurate
    • He clearly lacks understanding of what scientific scepticism is - we will accept anything if there is good, verifiable evidence to prove it
    • None of the poor quality trials showed any positive effect? Really? That doesn't sit right with me for some reason
    • Isn't that a risk that only people susceptible to the placebo effect will get filtered in?
    • I assume (without further checking) that those not getting a placebo benefit will just stop getting treatment - that must skew the results somewhat
  • The magazine in which it was published
    • It's not one I've heard of, and it's certainly not one I've heard of in terms of having sound peer review
Click to expand...

Quite a few things with this doesn't sit right with me either. You highlight most of them I think. Would be interesting to see what sceptics more informed than most of us would make of it.

Seems a bit strange to just blanket call this "laser acupuncture"

Novella on acupuncture: https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-doesnt-work/
 
Maybe she is just investigating the power she has to obtain a significant improvement in her employment terms.

I had acupuncture a few year back on my back but only as part of a suite of treatments. I'm pretty sceptical it did anything that wasn't corrected mechanically either by the osteopath directly or targetted exercise.
 
tumblr_m7jw50x2yt1rrj7f8o2_r3_250.gif
 
Don't want to get involved in an argument here. We're all united by a single (wonderful) shared experience - that of being a Spurs supporter - and because of that I like how friendly this place can be compared to a lot of the internet... notwithstanding the occasional heated spat on the subject of Levy. That's why I steer well clear of the Politics thread, or anything remotely controversial. Like most of us, I can have pretty strong opinions on certain topics and I'd rather not know which of you excellent Spurs fans have political or religious or philosophical beliefs I find wrong... or problematic... or fudging psychotic...

THAT SAID... I'd just like to say that those of you dismissing acupuncture as quackery might be doing it a disservice. Let me point out that I'm no "new-ager". There's plenty of nonsense and snake-oil being peddled to the naive and desperate and I'm 100% on the side of exposing that stuff. Whether it's "psychics" or homeopaths or a thousand other charlatans, I'm happy to see fraud (or just well-intentioned hokum) called out.

But as someone who has skirted the fringes of a couple of sciences; I think it behoves us to examine everything on its merit, and not just lump a bunch of unrelated things under the "alternative medicine" banner and disregard the lot out of personal bias. That's just as irrational as the poor eejit who buys a homeopathic sugar-water for €40 and thinks it'll cure their illness.

In the case of acupuncture, I've not done or read any research personally; but I have a family friend who has looked at it in some depth. He was a weight-lifter (tangent: his older brother won an Olympic medal in the boxing ring for Ireland) and upon retiring he qualified as a physiotherapist and spent a lengthy spell as a physio for Weightlifting Ireland and the Irish Olympic team. Not saying Irish weightlifters are better than any other... just making it clear that my friend is a guy who knows back injuries better than most people.

In order to further his education, he spent an entire year out in China learning from their weightlifting physiotherapists. Not that he came back and started practicing "Chinese medicine", but he came back with a much broader set of tools. Appointments at his private clinic are highly sought-after, and he gets plenty of referrals from doctors and sports injury specialists (including plenty of club doctors I'm told - though he takes confidentiality seriously and won't even say which sports, let alone which clubs!)

Anyway, the whole point is... this guy regularly includes a course of acupuncture alongside more conventional western treatments. There is no question in his mind that it has a role to play in treating certain injuries. It's not a panacea - it's not even his primary treatment regime, and I'm 100% certain he'd drop it completely if it wasn't showing results (because he's a results-oriented pragmatist if ever you saw one!)

Personal anecdote: I damaged my knee many years ago and he had me back on my feet faster than my GP felt should have been possible. Not a single acupuncture needle involved - just some careful manipulation and exercise sessions. A few years later I screwed up my back. That time, though, the treatment included acupuncture (and was equally effective). I'm not suggesting my experience "proves" anything. But when a lifelong and well-respected expert on back injury suggests acupuncture has a role to play... then I think it's worth accepting as a possibility.

That said - my friend would definitely suggest that if a back injury is serious enough to keep you out of work; it's serious enough to see a doctor about. You don't just toddle off to an acupuncturist as your first port of call. But if the doctor suggests a treatment that includes a course of acupuncture? Then it's probably out-of-line to dismiss or second-guess that treatment (unless you have a medical degree yourself and/or have some compelling evidence to the contrary).
 
DublinSpur said:
Don't want to get involved in an argument here. We're all united by a single (wonderful) shared experience - that of being a Spurs supporter - and because of that I like how friendly this place can be compared to a lot of the internet... notwithstanding the occasional heated spat on the subject of Levy. That's why I steer well clear of the Politics thread, or anything remotely controversial. Like most of us, I can have pretty strong opinions on certain topics and I'd rather not know which of you excellent Spurs fans have political or religious or philosophical beliefs I find wrong... or problematic... or fudgeing psychotic...

THAT SAID... I'd just like to say that those of you dismissing acupuncture as quackery might be doing it a disservice. Let me point out that I'm no "new-ager". There's plenty of nonsense and snake-oil being peddled to the naive and desperate and I'm 100% on the side of exposing that stuff. Whether it's "psychics" or homeopaths or a thousand other charlatans, I'm happy to see fraud (or just well-intentioned hokum) called out.

But as someone who has skirted the fringes of a couple of sciences; I think it behoves us to examine everything on its merit, and not just lump a bunch of unrelated things under the "alternative medicine" banner and disregard the lot out of personal bias. That's just as irrational as the poor eejit who buys a homeopathic sugar-water for €40 and thinks it'll cure their illness.
Click to expand...

What do you call alternative medicine that works? Medicine...

I'm not saying that everything that sounds "alternative" should be lumped together and dismissed. But the same standards of evidence should be used for alternative medicine and for science based medicine. If a treatment brought forward by big bad pharma wouldn't be permitted either because it's not deemed safe or effective it shouldn't be permitted as "alternative medicine" either.

DublinSpur said:
In the case of acupuncture, I've not done or read any research personally; but I have a family friend who has looked at it in some depth. He was a weight-lifter (tangent: his older brother won an Olympic medal in the boxing ring for Ireland) and upon retiring he qualified as a physiotherapist and spent a lengthy spell as a physio for Weightlifting Ireland and the Irish Olympic team. Not saying Irish weightlifters are better than any other... just making it clear that my friend is a guy who knows back injuries better than most people.

In order to further his education, he spent an entire year out in China learning from their weightlifting physiotherapists. Not that he came back and started practicing "Chinese medicine", but he came back with a much broader set of tools. Appointments at his private clinic are highly sought-after, and he gets plenty of referrals from doctors and sports injury specialists (including plenty of club doctors I'm told - though he takes confidentiality seriously and won't even say which sports, let alone which clubs!)

Anyway, the whole point is... this guy regularly includes a course of acupuncture alongside more conventional western treatments. There is no question in his mind that it has a role to play in treating certain injuries. It's not a panacea - it's not even his primary treatment regime, and I'm 100% certain he'd drop it completely if it wasn't showing results (because he's a results-oriented pragmatist if ever you saw one!)

Personal anecdote: I damaged my knee many years ago and he had me back on my feet faster than my GP felt should have been possible. Not a single acupuncture needle involved - just some careful manipulation and exercise sessions. A few years later I screwed up my back. That time, though, the treatment included acupuncture (and was equally effective). I'm not suggesting my experience "proves" anything. But when a lifelong and well-respected expert on back injury suggests acupuncture has a role to play... then I think it's worth accepting as a possibility.

That said - my friend would definitely suggest that if a back injury is serious enough to keep you out of work; it's serious enough to see a doctor about. You don't just toddle off to an acupuncturist as your first port of call. But if the doctor suggests a treatment that includes a course of acupuncture? Then it's probably out-of-line to dismiss or second-guess that treatment (unless you have a medical degree yourself and/or have some compelling evidence to the contrary).
Click to expand...

That's why we science...

If acupuncture is in deed effective, with a relevant effect size, of course it should be researched further and used. If the effect size is big enough beyond placebo that your man is capable of accurately detecting it in his daily practice it should be fairly trivial to document this in a well designed randomized trial. We know enough about the biases that influence our thinking to be highly skeptical even of an expert that bases his opinion on his own experience. One thing that should be striking to anyone getting a higher education is that even experts have their blind spots and biases.

If a medical doctor chose an older course of treatment that had been shown through repeated trials to be less effective than newer treatment options because he thinks it's showing better results with his patients I would be just as skeptical.

As we can't all get a medical degree to decide on the acupuncture issue, a climatology degree to decide on the climate change issue and an astrophysics degree to decide on the moon landing issue and so on we have to rely on experts. My take is that no one expert is worth listening to. What we need to pay attention to is the consensus of scientific opinion.

That being said it might be that acupuncture has a role, but that role needs to be identified through scientific research. Not through opinion based on anecdotal experience, even if the anecdotes are from experts.
 
In case anyone wonders how this all turned out, BTW, we ended up at an impasse.

I told our employee that we could only accept sick notes from "a real doctor" (my exact words) and that sick pay wouldn't be paid without one. So at least she has to now see a doctor as well as a charlatan - an improvement on before.

There's an impasse in the boardroom though. One of the other directors (unsurprisingly the religious one that likes to act on "gut instinct" and doesn't trust stats) also believes in quackery. It ended up with me asking him if he though the tooth fairy would put money under his pillow if he lost teeth. He misconstrued that as a threat and it all got silly. Isn't this supposed to be an enlightened society?
 
scaramanga said:
In case anyone wonders how this all turned out, BTW, we ended up at an impasse.

I told our employee that we could only accept sick notes from "a real doctor" (my exact words) and that sick pay wouldn't be paid without one. So at least she has to now see a doctor as well as a charlatan - an improvement on before.

There's an impasse in the boardroom though. One of the other directors (unsurprisingly the religious one that likes to act on "gut instinct" and doesn't trust stats) also believes in quackery. It ended up with me asking him if he though the tooth fairy would put money under his pillow if he lost teeth. He misconstrued that as a threat and it all got silly. Isn't this supposed to be an enlightened society?
Click to expand...

So you used the tactic that was batting around in the religious/isis thread (?), mocked and belittled his beliefs? i can see how he perceived that as a threat, or got slightly enraged by your tinkle taking:).........how'd it all smooth over in the end Scara? (with the director)
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
So you used the tactic that was batting around in the religious/isis thread (?), mocked and belittled his beliefs? i can see how he perceived that as a threat, or got slightly enraged by your tinkle taking:).........how'd it all smooth over in the end Scara? (with the director)
Click to expand...
He still thinks I'm an arrogant prick and I still think he's an outdated halfwit with the mental agility of a hippo and no relevance to the modern world.

So pretty much as we were before.
 
Question: Are some treatments known to have bigger placebo effects than others? If so, do people think it's acceptable to label such treatment as worthwhile and effective?

On the acupuncture stuff - one could argue that acupuncture does work, but not for the reasons practitioners say it does - that the sham acupuncture working doesn't represent the placebo effect, but rather that randomly sticking needles into someone is genuinely effective. Unfortunately it seems impossible to do a blind test on sticking needles into someone.

Second question: What are the most successful science-backed treatments for back pain?
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back