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Politics, politics, politics

Discussion in 'Classic Threads' started by markysimmo, 26 May 2014.

  1. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Chris Perry

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    When this thread reaches 1000 pages Brexit will be annulled and when the stadium thread reaches 1000 pages it will be finished. The universe is just waiting for us.
     
    AuroRaman likes this.
  2. P.D.

    P.D. Gerry Armstrong

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    I think the vote will be a lot closer than everyone thinks, Unite are apparently against another referendum and say Brexit needs to happen in one way or another. Lots of Labour MP's are in heavily leave voting constituencies.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-labour-against-backing-second-eu-referendum

    And I don't really get why the backstop is such a big deal unless people want a return to the hard border. Both sides will want to get out of it otherwise NI has a competitive advantage being out of the EU but almost full access in parts to the single market. I dont think we are going to impose a huge customs clampdown in the Irish sea right away but obviously there will need to be something.
     
  3. Danishfurniturelover

    Danishfurniturelover Paul Walsh

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    Just got back from Africa, the poverty shocked me did not expect that much of it. Do not know if it is my confirmation bias but I could not help the best thing we could do for Gambia and the poor parts of Africa is to actually trade with these countries.

    Was on a boat trip one day on a roots tour, basically a tour about the slave trade. The was a chap on the boat a local black African who had a blue high vis saying EU overseer on his vest. He actually started talking to me because I was wearing some shorts with the spurs written on it. Did not ask him what he was doing there but I could not help think a little bit of aid, basically buying people off rather then trying to help them help themselves.

    Anyway, I wont be replying in this thread, not because I dont believe in Brexit because I still do and always will. The fact that leave is still in the 40% range after 3 years of the most full on project fear I have seen in 50 years of politics pleases me to know others feel the same way. I do wonder at the next referendum which I feel remain are bound to win whether leaves views will be taken into account like we have been told since the last vote that remains views should be respected.

    Anyway, I am going to leave the discussion, I wish you guys all well I really do because we are all family. As long as none of you have done weird brick with kids or animals, I will love you all for life, you are my brothers.


    *The only political thing I want to discuss at the moment is why the Shoreham By Sea air diaster has still not had its court case and how the son of a bitch of a pilot is still walking free, but I think the is a thread on that somewhere I will try and dig out. People in this town could do with closure from that.
     
    SpurMeUp likes this.
  4. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Chris Perry

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    Were you staying by the coast? Is it right Gambia the country was drawn on a map by an Englishman measuring the range of British gun boats along the river Gambia? It's a tiny strip of a country only 50 km wide or something. If you travel in land people are poor (even more so) but its clean, healthy. Going into the countryside was the best part for me. Seeing little village schools, happy people, real Africa...and the nature all around...it was awe inspiring. Africian cities on the whole are not pretty places though.

    If I had time, I would love to travel in Africa. Most of it is off the beaten track, and out of the cities stunningly beautiful.
     
    Danishfurniturelover likes this.
  5. Gutter Boy

    Gutter Boy Tim Sherwood

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    McCluskey is an old Bennite leaver, like Corbyn and McDonnell

    No one gives a brick about the backstop. Apart from the 10 DUP members who prop up the government. If May hadn't ballsed up about the GE, this could have been sorted 18 months ago. The big problem is GB being bound in the customs union/level playing field, with no way of being able to exit it.

    I'll be interested to see what amendments the government propose to try and get the bill to pass. Something like making it illegal to pay the EU any money while we're in the backstop, or something to make it completely unpalatable to the EU too.
     
    Parklaner81 likes this.
  6. galeforce

    galeforce Tony Galvin

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    I knew things were degrading but I didn’t think it would be noticeable after just a week away.
     
  7. Danishfurniturelover

    Danishfurniturelover Paul Walsh

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    Yeah we were staying by the coast, koloi(might have spelt that wrong) lovely people so friendly. We did the roots tour which was pretty hard going seeing what went on with them. We did a safari which was amazing because you get the boat from North gambia across the river to south gambia, only took 40 minutes, then you drive 20 minutes into Senegal which is great to have another stamp on the passport. Saw loads of animals in their natural habitat.

    We then paid to do a private bird tour with a local expert, he drove us around and one of the places he drove us down the were mud huts by the side of the road and villages with one water pump in it for everyone to use. It was a humbling experience, makes you happy for what you have and made me want to push my son more because of the opportunties he has in this country that they dont have in Africa. The views we saw on this bird watching trip were amazing it was like a nature programme were you saw these great vistas across fields that looked like traditional Africa.

    It was a package holiday dirt cheap just £395 each bed and breakfast, but we made sure we had a day by the pool and then a day going out and doing stuff. The were people in the hotel a lot of northerners who just went for the sun which is their right, but they would walk down to the main strip and back to the Hotel and not do anything else, was a little sad I thought. Me and the wife are both quite good in that though we like to sit by a pool, we do a day doing stuff and then a day at the pool.

    We did meet some people from Manchester the men came to do bird watching as the are so many birds in Gambia and the women came to teach local women sewing. As in Gambia it is only the men who really work, apparently it has only been a democracy for 2 years. I really would love to do some volunteering some where in the world. As you know I have a terminal illness but I still have my health at the moment and I really feel like giving back to people who have not had opportunities.

    Would I go back? well yes but also the are other places in the world to visit. The wife wants to do Cuba next November and in January 2020 I am going to China for stem cell therapy for 2 months which hopefully will help me a lot, though is going to cost a fcuking fortune.

    One final thing when we caught this ferry from one side of Gambia to the other everyone on the coach got told to sit up top on the deck. I turned to Lucy said no way I will burn up there, she agreed, so we went and sat down with the locals,literally the only white faces. The smiles you got off this poor people, so happy and nice to you. I played around with a young boy who seemed to be fascinated by me. They were dressed in their sunday best(it was sunday) and i thought how people are the same the world over that they just want to be happy to go and visit their families and friends.

    The was a young lady sat opposite us, pretty little thing and she had a small plastic beach ball that looked a little tacky by western standards, but I wondered how long she took to save up for it and who she was going to be giving it to. She kept looking across at Lucy and her feet because she had toe nail polish on and the African women did not have that on their toes, their nails were quite well worn, it reminded me of how we are all the same all around the world. It made me feel bad when I spend money on crap when some have to save up for such simple things as a ball.

    I thought that the next time I hear of a ferry going down in some African country I wont dismiss it so quickly because it will resonate with me more how the people on it are real people with lives, loves and dreams. Travel really is good for the soul, a council estate kid from London who usually just had package holidays round Europe has had his mind expanded by his wife, because over the last 15 years I have got to see more of the world and it has expanded my mind and given me a better understanding of the world.

    Sorry for the long reply.
     
  8. AuroRaman

    AuroRaman Ruel Fox

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    Lovely post mate.


    Sitting on my porcelain throne using Tapatalk
     
    DTA and spasm like this.
  9. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Chris Perry

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    Sorry for quoting. But we need to get this thread to 1000 pages!

    Traveling allows you perspective for sure. Good to step outside your comfort zone. I stayed in Cuba for 2.5 months. Rented an appartment in Havana and was supposedly doing research out there. Bringing things back to politics/economics, it was insightful stepping out of a liberal economic, democratic country into a Communist state (was almost 20 years ago!). It gave me perspective on how government structure affect peoples' everyday lives. We presume we live in a free societry and there isn't a super structure that affects us here in the UK. But while we are freer politically here, there are economic, societal, political structures that condition how we live. Its not until you step outside a liberal economic democracy that you even notice them.

    In Cuba there are or were stronger social bonds, a greater sense of community, collective education and support. Old people weren't left by themselves, people had to work together to get by. But there is real frustrations mostly caused by a lack on money. More than political freedom, people miss economic freedom. Yet there are things the west can learn from communism. And I think Popularism is moving towards some of them.
     
  10. Rorschach

    Rorschach Erik Thorstvedt

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    Norway doesn't want the UK messing their brick up...
     
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  11. milo

    milo Vivian Woodward Staff Member

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  12. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Cecil Poynton

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    Its a big deal because it keeps us under EU rule until they permit us to leave.

    We will fall into it, because we arent able to negotiate an enormous trade deal in record time.

    Then. once we are in it, the EU have us by the balls and we'll be force to conceed everything they ask for or fear being trapped.
     
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  13. r-u-s-x

    r-u-s-x Ruel Fox

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    With all this backstop etc unless I am mistaken we can unilaterally go "no dea"l whenever we want - I cant see what anyone could do to stop us doing this. The indefinite backstop is only in regards to the trade deal that is organised in Mays Brexit deal, if we want that we need to live up to the terms.
     
  14. Gutter Boy

    Gutter Boy Tim Sherwood

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    Isn't there something about the withdrawal agreement having the status of an international treaty, so it's not something the UK government could unilaterally do?

    Obviously GB could ditch it. Even without them needing the DUP in a future parliament, I don't think the Tories would ever do that to NI. But Corbyn as a strong supporter of the decolonisation of Ireland might see the opportunity. Which is one reason why the DUP won't budge at all now.
     
  15. r-u-s-x

    r-u-s-x Ruel Fox

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    does that matter? The GFA was an international treaty and we were trying to impose boarders etc.

    http://theconversation.com/how-international-law-could-scupper-a-tory-deal-with-the-dup-79583

    The way I am reading this its only indefinite until terms are met and we go with Mays deal or another deal supersedes it - No deal is another deal that we can enact unilaterally.
     
  16. the dza

    the dza Christian Ziege

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    It is almost as if May has contrived to get a deal so bad that everyone sh1ts all over it and says "well, we might as well stay in then." The only thing that stops me believing this 400% is that I'm not sure her or her cabinet have the wit to attempt such a thing.
     
  17. Parklaner81

    Parklaner81 Bobby Mimms

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    Aside from the backstop issue, what are the major objections that make it so terrible? Genuine question. I stopped following the detail of all this some while back...! And from the brief bits I have picked up in recent days, I haven't heard too much of substance outside of the backstop.
     
  18. the dza

    the dza Christian Ziege

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    This is quite a good explanation, imo (click link for the whole thing, I'll quote a snippet):

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/france...sa-mays-brexit-deal-is-terrible-for-the-u-k/#

    Some time in the next few years, the backstop must end. Indeed, the EU is already trying to put a time limit on it. But the conundrum laid out in the Political Declaration is no more solvable than it ever was. The hard choice for Brexit remains the same. Either the U.K. gives up its goals of immigration restriction and independent trade policy for the sake of maintaining frictionless trade with the EU, or – since the Political Declaration rules out a permanent hard border between parts of the U.K. - there must eventually be a hard border on the island of Ireland.


    By kicking the can across the Article 50 deadline of March 29th, 2019, the Withdrawal Agreement removes the U.K.’s third option, which is to change its mind about Brexit. Currently, if the deal fails to get through Parliament – which is looking extremely likely – the Government could call a second referendum with Remain as an option. But once the Article 50 deadline is past, the Withdrawal Agreement would lock the U.K. into “frozen Brexit,” with the EU holding the keys to the freezer. Eventually, the UK would have to choose between hard borders, including in Ireland, or becoming a permanent EU rule taker.
     
  19. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Chris Perry

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    It isn’t so terrible as a WTO exit. But it’s suboptimal to what we have now. Our trade with the EU would be affected, services couldn’t be exported as seamlessly (or at all) so we’d be a bit poorer. It would negatively affect our economy - forget the exact figures- but our treasury has something like 6k per person per year cost. Mays deal is clever in one way, it seeks to protect car manufacturers and financial services, while stopping freedom of movement.

    The only thing it definitely does is stop freedom of movement, however the latest immigration figures show that FOM from the EU was 70k people. Less than Wembley’s capacity. While rest of the world immigration is 250,000 and we control all of that now while in the EU.

    The deal divides the United Kingdom. Could lead to hostility in Ireland, and Scottish independence. The UK will be a rule taker and have little to no say in the trade terms that we will have to follow. We don’t know exactly what the economic impacts will be yet because we still need to agree a free trade agreement with the EU, but we can see the broad outline of what we’d get: less sovereignty, impaired trade, a divided Ireland, and control of 70,000 immigrants from the EU.

    The realisation that Brexit offers the UK almost no value has to dawn on people. We lose quite a bit and get almost nothing in return.


    Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
     
    Last edited: 8 Dec 2018
  20. milo

    milo Vivian Woodward Staff Member

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