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Politics, politics, politics

Discussion in 'Randomination' started by markysimmo, 26 May 2014.

  1. Gutter Boy

    Gutter Boy Tim Sherwood

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    That is based on the impossible premise that the EU would put up tariffs against us, while we wouldn't on them. In reality in such a situation we'd equally disincentivise imported German cars, so the UK consumer would buy these Japanese-British ones instead.
     
  2. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Frederic Kanoute

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    If you are outside the customs union, there will likely be disruption, beit tariffs or customs checks on car parts or both. But what does the president of the CBI know? It's not his business to understand how UK commerce works. If you still don't believe him and the people making cars, you could simply look at the current trends and levels of investment into the UK car industry post Brexit vote... Land Rover production is being moved into the EU and there has been a massive cut in investment into the UKs car manufacturing. This is from a year ago:

    Investment in the UK car industry has fallen to just £322m in the first half of 2017, in a sign that companies are delaying or cancelling spending ahead of the UK leaving the EU. Last year £1.66bn was invested in the auto sector, more than 30 per cent down from £2.5bn in 2015, as carmakers and their suppliers delayed non-essential investment following the EU referendum in June 2016.


    https://www.ft.com/content/0c3427b2-5ce1-11e7-9bc8-8055f264aa8b

    The facts don't support the Leave rhetoric. It's sad - as I like revolution and change - but true.
     
    ShipOfTheseus likes this.
  3. scaramanga

    scaramanga Les Howe Staff Member

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    No we can't.

    As with many of the things you've posted in this thread, this point was discussed, evidence was shown and quite the opposite proven to be true. Yet, once again, you pretend it hasn't happened and continue with baseless statements. IIRC., I quoted the EU law directly when this was last bought up, and it is nothing like you've described.
     
  4. Gutter Boy

    Gutter Boy Tim Sherwood

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    Or does the head of the CBI complainbecause Honda are complaining to him that they will have to employ mackems - who want holiday, pay and lunch - rather than being able to import a Romanian workforce who will largely make do without them?

    The car industry problems are all to do with the diesel scandal, which was actually caused by the EU (actively ignoring NO because the Germans and French had banked on diesel, while the Americans had gone for petrol)
     
  5. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Frederic Kanoute

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    Are you saying EU states can not log visitors into their country? I remember Milo had to register at the local police station when he was in an EU country. Are you saying that if someone is not working for a period of time, there isn't an EU law saying they can be sent home?

    Why be so coy with your evidence? If you have a point to make, make it!
     
  6. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Frederic Kanoute

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    Land Rovers were made in Birmingham. They won't be anymore. They will be made in the EU. 2.6billion used to be invested into UK car manufacturing. It's now a fraction of this figure. That equates directly to jobs, commerce, taxes, wealth. It would be better to say, okay Brexit has serious challenges for our economy, but not everything is about money....then focus on the positive things that Brexit could deliver. What are they again? It's certainly not prosperity for the UK. A few biz people who don't have to follow EU regulations might make a mint, but most will lose out, like the people who used to build Land Rover cars.
     
  7. scaramanga

    scaramanga Les Howe Staff Member

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    That's precisely the issue - this point has been made, thoroughly discussed and evidence shown. This happens repeatedly in this thread - I show figures/evidence to back up claims and then 5 pages later you start again as if it had never been discussed. Much like the EU - it appears to be a tactic of simply repeating a point and ignoring other evidence until it becomes the new truth.

    Have a search back through this thread - it absolutely isn't the case that we can quickly remove an EU citizen, neither is it particularly easy nor clear if we can remove them after a long period of not working. I quoted and linked the EU law directly on this thread.
     
  8. scaramanga

    scaramanga Les Howe Staff Member

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    Things should be made in the cheapest place they can be made. With cars, the UK hasn't been that place for a long time.
     
  9. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Frederic Kanoute

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    From what your saying, its ambiguous. So why doesn't our government give it a bash? Interpret the law to suit our goals. And if the EU think its not legal they can question it. Like you, I can't be bothered to trall back through this monolith thread.
     
  10. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Paul Robinson

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    Page 604
     
  11. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Frederic Kanoute

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    Yet private profit making car companies have been keen to invest in UK production. We have great engineering knowledge, a well educated workforce and until recently stability and access to 550 million consumers without tariffs or impediment. A huge attractive open market.
     
    Last edited: 14 Jun 2018
  12. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Frederic Kanoute

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    Are you indexing this thread!? Impressive.

    "Job seekers have the right to reside for a period exceeding six months (CoJ, Case C-292/89 Antonissen) without having to meet any conditions if they continue to seek employment in the host Member State and have a ‘genuine chance’ of finding work; during this time they cannot be expelled. "

    "The status of first-time job seekers is currently the subject of intense discussion, as they do not have a worker status to retain. In Cases C-138/02 Collins and C-22/08 Vatsouras, the CoJ found that such EU citizens had a right of equal access to a financial benefit intended to facilitate access to the labour market for job seekers"


    It is hardly the conclusive cut and dry tight refutation that Scara has made it out to be. Would you disagree, that the UK could do more to track and potentially control EU migration where people are just claiming benefits? If Hungry or wherever could get Milo to check in at the police station each week, why can't we? Why is everything the EUs fault, and none of it the UK Government - who control almost everything in the UK. Does the EU control UK taxes, education, health or social services? The EU is very limited. Why exaggerate the EUs effect on us? Maybe so we can blame all the UKs issues on the EU, rather than take responsibility at home to address?

    Or put another way, what would you expect to see improved and addressed with no EU?
     
  13. Gutter Boy

    Gutter Boy Tim Sherwood

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    Or you could say that before the EU we had a strong British car industry. Now we are hostages to foreign owners who have no value for place, and are just looking to squeeze every drop of profit, however they can. Brexit will allow us to have an industrial strategy again - maybe even restart our own car industry
     
  14. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Paul Robinson

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    I used the search funciton, thats the first thing I found relevant. Scara will tell you if its what he meant.
     
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  15. scaramanga

    scaramanga Les Howe Staff Member

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    I'd say it's very clear.

    The EU puts the burden of proof on the member state that the person the state wishes to deport or deprive of benefits is clearly detrimental to that state. That person simply needs to show that they are seeking (not necessarily gaining) employment in order to remain indefinitely. That's a very low bar for anyone to pass.

    As someone who has had to trawl through and apply huge amounts of EU legislation, the way judgement will fall in this case is clear - the case history points to that.

    Yes we can make EU migrants show ID cards (as long as we implement them for UK citizens too - not an appealing idea) and yes, we can make them turn up at police stations should we so choose. What we can't do is deport them or refuse them entry at will, nor can we refuse them benefits.
     
  16. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Frederic Kanoute

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    That's very deafeatest. I would act first think later on this one.

    1. Find any layabouts who are clearly not trying to find work. Don't give benifits and send em home. Big political cache for whoever does that.

    2. "The status of first-time job seekers is currently the subject of intense discussion, as they do not have a worker status to retain." Use this premise - first-time in the UK job seekers do not have worker status full stop. They don't qualify. Act on this, and let someone try and prove it wrong. Would take years to prove one way or the other. Other EU nations like Hungry would be all over it too, massively supporting the UK.

    3. Having a 'genuine chance' to find work is also extremely ambiguous and open to interpretation by a member state. For example, you could say that not speaking English precludes a person from having a genuine chance of finding work in a certain geographic area.

    There is plenty the UK *could do. Just not the leadership to do it. It's like some geezer who blames his own malase on everything but his own actions. At some point you have to deal with the hand you have and take action not blame everyone else.

    On top of these more draconian measures the UK government could do a lot more to educate and develop Brits so they can get better employment. The UK could also address non-EU imigration - which is the majority of immigration. Or....we could sit back do nothing and blame Brussels.
     
    Last edited: 13 Jun 2018
  17. milo

    milo Vic Buckingham Staff Member

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    This thread is worth a court of minutes of your time

     
  18. galeforce

    galeforce Terry Dyson

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    Surely we can just use all that extra sovereignty instead of these silly foreign isotopes?
     
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  19. Trixster

    Trixster Thimotée Atouba

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    A tad out of context with the current ramblings in the thread, but have they decided anything yet for UK citizens living in the EU with spouses whom have the family member of EU citizen card? I travel back n forth to see the family and after all this debacle has concluded then I would still like to do so with the missus in tow.

    I can't find anything substantial that provides any answers, but to be honest news in general around most things is still flimsy at best. :/
     
  20. galeforce

    galeforce Terry Dyson

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    Wow, Brexit dividend for the NHS...

     

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