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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

JerusalemMan said:
They do look good
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I know this is a light hearted issue

I got to say I never cared what is on the passport. You could have a picture of a donkey bricking and I would not care, same goes for the currency. Save the pound. What a load of gonad*s I dont care if the queen is on it or not. Do care who controls the economy and who can implement measures when the economy is in trouble.

Will be interesting to see what happens to Italy in the future.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
I would still have voted for it. Can not be bothered to get into big long discussions, and I do respect you. But the are plenty of people like me. They might be more articulate about it but yeah the are people who will vote leave despite a few teething problems.

The government should have been working on trade deals with countries outside the EU while negotiations were ongoing.

The EU did not want us to work on other trade deals while we were leaving the EU because they want to hurt the uk for daring to leave. A commonwealth deal with Australia, Canada and New Zealand would be quite straightforward. Japan and my favourite country South Korea would also be a great start.

Big old world out there and nothing to get scared of.

I have had quite a few PMs from people who now wont post in this thread because it has become somewhat of an echo chamber. But the are plenty of people who are glad to have left.

I truly do respect your views and your right to hold those views.

I would just say that reading the Guardian and its constant drip feed of negativity will effect your mindset. I dare say in any sphere of life to have a daily negative story or influence on your life could change your personality. I hope it does not happen ad I want to have a beer or 2 with you at a game one day in the future.

If you were a farmer in the Philippines and every day you woke up and moaned or had negative thoughts think how it would effect the family. Even cousins working in the nearest city in low level admin jobs would be effected by the constant negativity.

What about the peasants in Bolivia and Peru logging trees to make a living. They know they are damaging the environment but they need to provide for family. It is all about the mindset, phil. I don't know your real name so I'm going to call you phil. Phil you need to be positive, wake up and have good thoughts because the bad thoughts will effect you and your health if you allow them into your life. Also think about the guy in the Philippines and the other guys in Bolivia and Peru.
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Credit to you for articulating. It is amazing how strongly others felt, and now they are conspicuous by their absence. Blaming an echo chamber is ironic (if they posted it wouldn't be) and a bit of a limp excuse. Up to them. At some point there will be positives, and I'm sure posters will be gleefully highlight them here. I don't blame anyone who voted for Brexit, the broad sentiments of it I wholly get and support. A national drive, and patriotic strengthening of the UK - all good. But so far it does not seem to deliver.

We used to send consignments to customers who were on holiday or temp living in the EU. Was handy for them. For £20 extra they could get their parcel of kit anywhere in the EU in a couple of days. Now the customer gets a bill for £200 before the parcel is released. Crazy. Thankfully we won't lose work as all our customers are based in the UK normally, but many companies are impacted.

Whether someone taking their dog to Ireland, a student wishing to do an exchange program, a business trying to trade freely, or a retiree who wants to put their feet up in Spain, our freedoms have been reduced. Not massively, don't get me wrong, but they are there to see. We made history with the first trade deal that erected barriers, rather than took them away. In that sense, it is sadly a step backward. There may be more trade with other nations, but no one can really put together a cohesive argument as to why. As we know, Italy and Germany export huge amounts more to the rest of the world than the UK, and they do that from within the EU.

I hope the government do have some kind of national drive post Brexit, and to be fair to them, covid is a massive distraction.
 
You see this is where you and I differ. Because I actually can not stand patriotic nonsense. Make Britain great, nah not for me. Make Britain hard working independent kind decent, those are attributes I like and admire.

I will admit the are many on my side of the debate who have views on other subjects that I wholly disagree with. I have heard some say we should not accept asylum seekers, when I feel it is important to accept people from war torn areas but think it should be done through red cross camps etc.

I have heard some say we should not accept immigrants when I feel it is good for the country that we accept them for both economic and cultural reasons, but in a controlled manner. Cant even remember the amount of people that complained to me about council houses being given out to people who just arrived in the country. I'm talking about people I used to know when I ran a logistics warehouse who were worried about their futures. People used to moan to me about a Polish guy who got child tax credits for a kid that had moved back to Poland with the mother.

The seeds of Brexit were down from 2003 onwards with Bliars decision to allow mass immigration without any thought for the consequences. Undoubtedly immigration was good for Great Britain plc, but for many they saw impacts on their lives and the worries for the future. It had nothing to do with daily mail headlines either. It was what lots of people saw everyday and they would tell their friends and families.

Big changes in countries don't come over night or even a year or two, they are years in the making. Trump coming to power was years in the making and I dont believe that many Americans were racist either.

If people want someone to blame for Brexit then they need to look at the war criminal Bliar and his aide who said they allowed mass immigration "to run the rights nose in it" well I wonder what they think to it now.

The are people like me who for long held beliefs will always vote to leave because our ideology holds the view of being part of the world system rather then a European one which was creeping ever rather into people's lives(notably since our vote to leave a few in the upper echelons of the EUhave said they should reign back)

Had the EU remained purely a trading block I could vote to be a part of it, I feel very uncomfortable about ever closer union though. As part of the society that voted to leave I appreciate I am in a small minority who does not care about immigration and had Bliar not given us that gift we would not have won. I was first attracted to the movement by sir Jimmy Goldsmith and have stayed ever since.

You want to blame someone go for Bliar not Farage or Cameron.

Sorry for the long post but worth reading if any of you guys want a view from the other side:(:)
 
Looks like the problems with the EU were really with a sovereign UK elected politician's decisions then.

People never object to the trade part of the EU. A customs union is what the EU is at its heart. The logic was countries that are trading won't go to war so easily. Few ever name things they don't like about the EU. Laws that affect them negatively or that they don't like. But we are seeing the converse now, laws that helped us and gave us freedom to travel and trade have been lost to our detriment. Ever closer union - an abstract concept - gets rolled out. The reality is each nation is supremely distinct and protective of its independence. And while there are federalists in the EU there are many many more nationalists.

Let's hope there is something to show for Brexit in a couple of years time. There has to be some upside.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:

The seeds of Brexit were down from 2003 onwards with Bliars decision to allow mass immigration without any thought for the consequences.
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Sathnam Sangera (Times columnist amongst others) has just written a book out this week called Empireland. Would strongly urge anyone to read it, i'm awaiting delivery, but think you'll find Brexit can be found as far back as the British Empire.

Would thoroughly recommend people giving it a read, or at least willing to open their mind up to the atrocities of the Empire, it's about expanding your knowledge, not reducing it.
 
Didn’t de Gaulle reject us twice or three times from joining the EEC. As he perceived us as unsuitable during his tenure here during the war.
How things change
 
Diamond Lights said:
Sathnam Sangera (Times columnist amongst others) has just written a book out this week called Empireland. Would strongly urge anyone to read it, i'm awaiting delivery, but think you'll find Brexit can be found as far back as the British Empire.

Would thoroughly recommend people giving it a read, or at least willing to open their mind up to the atrocities of the Empire, it's about expanding your knowledge, not reducing it.
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I will keep an eye out for a second hand one. I sometimes think people who dont agree with my views have me a little wrong, not saying this you specifically. As if I am proud to be British or about the empire.

Let me state here quite clearly for the record I have never said the Empire is a good thing. At it's worst it was pure evil think the slave trade. At it's best when it governed some countries with a few hundred men there(some of the smaller African ones) it was guilty of stealing(taking another countries resources) the was no good about the Empire and I have and never will defend it.

The idea of patriotism is not something I really actually go in for. I was lucky to be born in London so I got a massive head start on millions in this world.

The danger is in lecturing not saying your doing this or blaming the current populace for things that happened over a 100 years ago.

I have this country feels like it did in 96. I just hope we and the left dont regress into more point scoring because if that happens we go back to the late 80s and massive conservative majorities.

I have seen a couple of people just slaughter the government and people next to all near them notably flinch. Starmer has not done it and kept the attack on the poor record of the government. If he gets dragged into a class war or allows some of the left wing media to drift into the hysteria it sometimes finds itself in then he risks turning people off.
 
spitshine said:
Didn’t de Gaulle reject us twice or three times from joining the EEC. As he perceived us as unsuitable during his tenure here during the war.
How things change
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The french knew that we had a weak conservative leader negotiating for us who would give away far to much of our fish. Think about the Iceland fish wars(not the show on channel 5) and they also trigger they could charge us ever increasing amounts for membership. Then they realised down the line they would want an armed forces and Britain has had by European standards anyway large militarily capabilities. Then despite what the hippies tell you nuclear weapons keep you safe. It is probably why Putin has not rolled his tanks into Poland yet. We have them and France is the only other European nation that does.
 
monkeybarry said:
The way it's going we'll have to print more money to put a price on it
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Well it is time for a debt jubilee and to then focus on the proper things. Education and not in fcuking film studies but in jobs in the sciences and green technology. You want to study film history great do it on your time and I will chat to you about it in a pub sometime.
 
spitshine said:
Didn’t de Gaulle reject us twice or three times from joining the EEC. As he perceived us as unsuitable during his tenure here during the war.
How things change
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Churchill and he did not get on at all by all accounts. Apparently de Gaulle was not an admirer of us even before that.
 
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I wonder what the EU reaction would be if our customs officials started getting all snippy and bureaucratic about paperwork on vaccine exports in the coming weeks?
 
djp82 said:
Churchill and he did not get on at all by all accounts. Apparently de Gaulle was not an admirer of us even before that.
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A tit for tat history goes back hundreds of years. France and England defined each other, pushed the other forward, and fought each other constantly!

France's revolution can be traced to us lot too. Defeated in the 7-year war where they lost Canada to us, they then spent all their money backing American independence against the English. It bankrupted France and when the harvest failed, the French people revolted, ultimately getting rid of the monarchy and developing their egalitarian doctrines - all humans should be seen as equal and deserve equal rights. Which was no doubt partly stimulated by the English parliament (which itself is linked to William the Concorour a Frenchie with Scandi roots)...but we abolished slavery first. Post revolution the French set up assemblies to discuss and govern and that is where Left and Right comes from - a horse-riding arena was the only space big enough to accommodate the deliberations in Paris, and political factions grouped together on the right and left side of the arena https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salle_du_Manège
 
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SpurMeUp said:
A tit for tat history goes back hundreds of years. France and England defined each other, pushed the other forward, and fought each other constantly!

France's revolution can be traced to us lot too. Defeated in the 7-year war where they lost Canada to us, they then spent all their money backing American independence against the English. It bankrupted France and when the harvest failed, the French people revolted, ultimately getting rid of the monarchy and developing their egalitarian doctrines - all humans should be seen as equal and deserve equal rights. Which was no doubt partly stimulated by the English parliament (which itself is linked to William the Concorour a Frenchie with Scandi roots)...but we abolished slavery first. Post revolution the French set up assemblies to discuss and govern and that is where Left and Right comes from - a horse-riding arena was the only space big enough to accommodate the deliberations in Paris, and political factions grouped together on the right and left side of the arena https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salle_du_Manège
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That was quite an interesting read.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Post revolution the French set up assemblies to discuss and govern and that is where Left and Right comes from - a horse-riding arena was the only space big enough to accommodate the deliberations in Paris, and political factions grouped together on the right and left side of the arena
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So the reason the world is in this fine mess is because of an 18th Century rap battle?

Stupid French.
 
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