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Politics, politics, politics part deux

Discussion in 'Randomination' started by SpurMeUp, 19 Feb 2019.

  1. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Chris Perry

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    Was one of the core Leave campaign points, leaving the EU would allow us to provide more money to the NHS? Not sell it off to American health care conglomerates.


    Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
     
    Hotshot-Tottenham likes this.
  2. Gutter Boy

    Gutter Boy Tim Sherwood

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    The defacto sell off of the NHS happened about 20 years ago. It's just called public sector tendering as part of EU competition laws
     
    Last edited: 5 Jun 2019
  3. parklane1

    parklane1 Andy Thompson

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  4. scaramanga

    scaramanga Erik Thorstvedt Staff Member

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    Allow us to. Doesn't mean we have to.

    We could spend it better on getting rid of the disgusting top rate of tax.
     
  5. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Chris Perry

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    The real Conservative position, and irony of Brexit, summed up perfectly.


    Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
     
    monkeybarry likes this.
  6. glasgowspur

    glasgowspur Vedran Corluka

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    It's not the top rate that's disgusting, it's the middle earner rate, nothing wrong with charging 50% for the super rich, it's charging the slightly higher than average earner 40%
     
  7. scaramanga

    scaramanga Erik Thorstvedt Staff Member

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    That's very true. Equally, £150k pa is not super rich either.

    Whilst we're discussing it, the differential tax rate at £100k is hideous, as is the removal of childcare benefit at £60k
     
  8. glasgowspur

    glasgowspur Vedran Corluka

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    How they can justify the basic doubling to create the middle rate but the top rate only going up by 50% more is staggering.
    Not that they give a fudge of course.
     
  9. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Chris Perry

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    I hate to say I agree. There is a lot of tax to pay in this nation. I believe in state ownership (especially for profit) but also a smaller state, and less government spending. So much of what our government spends could be utalised better. Probably 50% of taxes could be spent with more care and savings. There is very little value for money in state spending compared to entrepreneurial uses of resources and invention associated with private industry. What does that make me?

    Have there been any movements or politicians who've advocated a smaller state but public ownership (for profit or utility)?
     
  10. scaramanga

    scaramanga Erik Thorstvedt Staff Member

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    I don't think the two are compatible.

    Competition is required to make cost savings anything other than a "nice to have". I get quite irritated when I don't get value for money, yet most of the comparable public services I receive are far worse than the open market alternatives. Not only that, but I pay much more for them too.

    I believe in Germany one can opt out of the state insurance and pay, instead for private insurance. A far better system than our disgusting method of taking a fortune in tax and then providing a system so terrible one has to pay for private healthcare on top.
     
  11. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Chris Perry

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    On the surface I agree. How can a smaller state and state ownership be compatible?

    But we're lumping together a whole heap of different state activities into one. For me, the state owning profitable utalities like Thames Water (regularly making £1b+ profits per annum) is not incompatible with the government also spending money more carefully (or more creatively) on things like grants, benfits etc. Utility companies don't really have competition. Why not have them run like private businesses with the £1b pa going back into the UK Exchequer rather to off shore accounts?

    In short, why can't government enterprises be run more like private ones to benifit tax payers and reduce tax?
     
  12. scaramanga

    scaramanga Erik Thorstvedt Staff Member

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    That train of thought is based heavily on the assumption that Thames Water would continue to make profits if owned and managed by the state. That's a massive assumption.
     
  13. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Chris Perry

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    I agree. It's not an assumpton however. The question is simple: how can state owned companies be insulated from public demands to be run like private enterprises? Essentially with the tax payers being share holders. It should not be a massive undertaking. Put in place a board, performance bonuses etc
     
  14. the dza

    the dza Christian Ziege

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    How was it done with East Coast Mainline when that was taken into de facto government ownership? It turned a profit, high customer satisfaction, everything was fine, better infact than the privatised version.

    It shouldn't be too hard to replicate that across other natural monopolies that are better off being owned by our state (as opposed to the states of other nations).
     
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  15. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Chris Perry

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    That's it. Forgot simplistic ideologies for a second, just look at what works and what does not. The ideologies of the past are useless now. They need reinventing. Which is why both major parties have serious problems. The Coservatives don't know what they stand for anymore, and Labour are too ridgidly set in a old style socialism. Take the good from both ideologies and there is something there that has not been exploited or explored. Labour have valid ideas but they have to move away from a high tax ethos. It won't get them elected and it does not represent what they are trying to do either.

    The truth of the matter is a lot of your taxes you pay are wasted. How can a government address that? Not by privitisation but by incentivising innovation, some risk, and excellence in both the civil service and state owned industries. In short have them act more like private entities. ANd bring people along for the ride, get them to publicly reform services that could be better. People who are work in public sectors know where the waste is. They see it every day. But we're not harnessing them.
     
  16. the dza

    the dza Christian Ziege

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    They aren't really. McDonnell is much more interested in the democratisation of the workplace (worker co-ops) than he is having a tzar run a state-owned behemoth -- which could lead to the kind of efficiency you are talking about, as in the pubic servants knowing where the waste is and acting accordingly, having the power to do so. Re. taxes, they have to set out plans for tax increases and higher spending, otherwise the ideas get drowned out with the pearl-clutching "where's the money to come from?" from the right. In the last manifesto, the tax increases were targetted at corporations earning over X amount (I'd have to look it up, but it was also only restoring rates back to what they were pre-Osborne) and the top 5% of earners (with higher tax rises the higher up in that 5% that a person is). That 5% ain't voting for a left-wing Labour anyway.
     
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  17. scaramanga

    scaramanga Erik Thorstvedt Staff Member

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    That's how most public enterprises have been run. With very, very few exceptions they've either been terrible for customers, a huge loss of money or both.
     
  18. scaramanga

    scaramanga Erik Thorstvedt Staff Member

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    East Coast Mainline isn't a monopoly - that's why it was successful.

    In the words of its CEO, putting railways under state control "would be a disaster."

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...r-state-control-would-be-a-disaster-6dndggt3l

    We can't replicate that through nationalisation because that would take away the very competition that made this scenario successful.
     
  19. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Chris Perry

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    So run them properly. Thames Water makes billions which leaves the UK to offshore tax havens. We don’t even know who owned the company. That profit could be going back into the nation cutting your taxes. Forget your ideologies for a moment and accept it makes sense.


    Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
     
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  20. DTA

    DTA Steed Malbranque

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    If you can't see the link between the two... Then I really don't know what to say.

    brexit (hard brexit) will devour all that is good about this country.

    The signs are there.
     
    Hotshot-Tottenham likes this.

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