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Politics, politics, politics part deux

Discussion in 'Randomination' started by SpurMeUp, 19 Feb 2019.

  1. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Cecil Poynton

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    Call it what you will, it amounts to the same thing.
     
  2. Gutter Boy

    Gutter Boy Tim Sherwood

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    It's actually not traditional Labour. It comes from a Green/left libertarian background. Usually Labour don't like it because it replaces most of the state bureaucracy, which is their source of power.

    Also there is no benefits class because everyone gets paid it - even Jim Ratcliffe and the Duke of Westminster will get their £200 a week
     
  3. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Cecil Poynton

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    There is a benefits class now.

    Give them £200 a week - and Ill wager reduce/remove their traditional benefits and its the same thing. Just a PR exercise.
     
  4. Gutter Boy

    Gutter Boy Tim Sherwood

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    That's the idea - it replaces all benefits and the state pension.

    But, if you are working you get it too. So you have the security of knowing your accommodation and food would be covered, even if you lost your job, needed a career break, or wanted to pursue something more rewarding that doesn't pay (the arts, volunteering, child care/parental care etc.)
     
  5. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Cecil Poynton

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    So the benefits class remain as was. Like I said. Probably better off from what you say, so they'll be laughing.

    Though I didnt consider them trying to buy more people above that as well.

    Id certainly welcome an extra £200 per week for my wife and I, that would pay the rent.

    I wonder what magic money tree they will pull this out of...
     
  6. Gutter Boy

    Gutter Boy Tim Sherwood

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    Removing all benefits, pensions, pre-school childcare, and the bureaucracy that supports all that, will pay for a big chunk of it

    It's also fairer distribution of national resources. Currently 5% of the population own 40% of the wealth.
     
  7. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Cecil Poynton

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    We'll see.

    Not that I expect it to happen anyway, but I would be amazed if it came through as you think it will.
     
  8. Gutter Boy

    Gutter Boy Tim Sherwood

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    It's a bit like the introduction of the welfare state in the 1940s - you just need that one radical government, and then people won't ever give it up. Once the concept of citizens' income gains a foothold, the idea of dependency on corporations will never come back.

    Automation and the gig economy make it inevitable. If not, the alternative is really really bleak
     
    Rorschach likes this.
  9. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Cecil Poynton

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    Yeah I know this is one of your soap box things.

    All sounds nice in GB utopia but until it happens Ill remain sceptical.
     
  10. Parklaner81

    Parklaner81 Bobby Mimms

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    I'd take a (fairly confident) guess that there will be people today receiving more in benefits than the UBI will be set at. How will that work?

    My next guess is that UBI, if introduced, would very quickly become absolutely taken for granted, and looked upon as an absolute floor to be further topped up. In effect continuing the current system, just far more expensively.
     
  11. Parklaner81

    Parklaner81 Bobby Mimms

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    Can't recall too many posts on here I've agreed with more than this.
     
  12. Gutter Boy

    Gutter Boy Tim Sherwood

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    It needs to very scientifically be set at a level that covers basics, but no luxuries. In my head it's £18k per adult and £9k per child, but that's me thinking with tax; without it it's probably 2/3rds of that

    All money is invented. We just need to get to a state where we think about sharing resources, rather than how the rich can exploit the masses
     
  13. galeforce

    galeforce Tony Galvin

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    But “basic” depends on situation, where you live, what allergies or illnesses you have, there is no UBI because the disparity is too great to reach one.
     
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  14. Jordinho

    Jordinho John White Staff Member

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  15. galeforce

    galeforce Tony Galvin

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    overturning the result from the previous contest?
     
  16. Glenda's Legs

    Glenda's Legs Simon Davies

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    I guess getting us banned from Europe would be a new way to achieve Brexit.
     
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  17. Rorschach

    Rorschach Erik Thorstvedt

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    Ironically one of Rutger Bregman's soap box things in his Utopia For Realists book ;).

    Personally I have read enough about UBI to be convinced of it's merits. Practical implementation would be amazingly tricky but not impossible.
     
  18. Gutter Boy

    Gutter Boy Tim Sherwood

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    The country is automatically rebalanced if you start killing off 'market forces'. Why live in squalor in London if you don't need to be there for a job. Move to where you want to live and, if you want a job, do something where you live

    To make a footballing analogy, it would be a bit like what the tv money has done bottom 14 EPL clubs. Suddenly they don't have to sell their players, except when it suits them, because they've now got a baseline that makes them comfortable.

    Neo-liberalism makes it a buyers' market (with corporates as the buyers). This makes it a sellers' market (with citizens as the sellers)
     
  19. galeforce

    galeforce Tony Galvin

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    How long does the automatic rebalancing take?
     
  20. scaramanga

    scaramanga Tommy Harmer Staff Member

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    You can't kill off market forces. How do you convince someone to sell a scarce, desirable product cheaply?

    Your football analogy only works if the income is being taken (taxed) from the clubs themselves, but the TV money comes from outside.
     

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