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Poch

Discussion in 'General Football' started by thfcsteff, 24 Mar 2020.

  1. metalgear

    metalgear Christian Ziege

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    He has his limitations and I still like him the way I like jol and redknapp - they pushed the boundaries of what's possible and gave us renewed hope.

    All three are great coaches in that regard... Not just managing teams but improving them. But just not good enough to win things.

    Poch will end up like them and if he wants a job it will only be challenger teams not top tier.

    Sent from my SM-G985F using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
     
    Legohamster likes this.
  2. Robspur12

    Robspur12 Vedran Corluka

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    As much as I respect both Jol and Redknapp, Poch was a superior coach to both. I don't remember either achieving 2nd place in the league, unbeaten at home for a whole season, regular champions League qualification and reaching the CL final.

    As for only being good enough for challengers not top tier, I must have missed Koeman's stellar achievements before being appointed by Barca.

    In my opinion what Poch needs to make the next step to winning trophies, is have a bigger squad of quality players in order to modulate his training intensity. He also needs to bring in conditioning coaches to ensure his training regimen doesn't push players beyond their physical or mental limits.
     
    Glenda's Legs likes this.
  3. Baleforce

    Baleforce Fanny Walden

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    Koeman has won titles with multiple clubs.

    I agree on Poch, he needs to carefully pick his next club, and win something.
     
  4. billyiddo

    billyiddo David Ginola Staff Member

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    Would love to see a world where the top coaches in the game get put to the test under certain conditions just to blow this retsrded thinking out the wster once and for all - let's see which managers are good enough to win things under the circumstances Tottenham managers have had to work under the last ten years or so.

    Conversely lets see how Redknapp Jol and Poch do if they are put in charge of clubs that have the clout and reputation to fully back them.

    Take AVB as an example, done poorly with us but when put in charge of clubs which are the richest in their league he wins trophies. Absolutely no reason to think the managers mentioned above wouldn't do the same.

    As for Pochettino the worst thing that seems to have happened to his reputation is overachieving - we had no right to be finishing any higher than we had done under previous mangers, best of the sides outside the top 4 trying to muscle our way in, there was certainly no extra investment in the team or players with big reputations bought when compared to our teams before, the fact he over shot that level and had us 3rd/2nd/3rd and deep in to the CL has caused people to lose a grip on reality and think we actuallt fell short.
     
    Last edited: 19 Sep 2020
  5. Raziel

    Raziel Jimmy Neighbour

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    It's timing more than anything in my opinion

    Poch got "lucky" with us, a mostly young and hungry team with a ridiculous amount of talent (prime Lloris, Toby, Jan, Rose, Walker, Dembele, Eriksen, plus Kane, Dele, Son with cameo seasons from Trippier, Wanyama and Dier)
    Redknapp also had some pretty fudging decent talent as well ..

    Right place, right time. right situation .. look at Pep, how much more resources can a top manager get and fail to win CL again (it was 11 fudging years ago at Barca)

    I disagree with Poch over achieving, Redknapp achieved top 4, twice .. Poch overachieving would have actually been winning something, converting one of the many QF/SF/Finals into something .. always came up short ..
     
  6. billyiddo

    billyiddo David Ginola Staff Member

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    Like i said won't be drawn in to debating stuff we've already gone over but what's happened since then shows what's what.
     
    Raziel likes this.
  7. Bishop

    Bishop Goran Bunjevcevic

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    Harry had a better side, he just lacked a good striker. Harry Kane in the Harry Redknapp side and we really would have won something.
     
    Robspur12 and glorygloryeze like this.
  8. Robspur12

    Robspur12 Vedran Corluka

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    Hmm. Of course Poch just "got lucky." For an accomplished poster you really write some one eyed nonsense when it comes to Poch.
     
  9. glorygloryeze

    glorygloryeze Jimmy McCormick

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    Poch was a more rounded coach as well though
     
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  10. glorygloryeze

    glorygloryeze Jimmy McCormick

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    Got lucky?? Lol

    I did feel there were limitations to Poch's 'Ktpton factor' methodology of out-running and out-muscling the opposition and in the end it proved to be so imo.

    But to say Poch 'Got lucky' to put us in CL year after year after how many years of trying to just do it consecutively? If you were maybe talking about the run to the CL final, perhaps i'd disagree slightly be also see where you would be coming from. But to say 3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th was 'lucky'???
    Given all you say about how hard it is for Levy/ENIC to compete with 'doped clubs' and the 'historical top 4' that shows who you are contradicting yourself and using the same rules to blow smoke up Levy's butt whilst putting down Poch.
    That is, total nonsense
     
    glasgowspur likes this.
  11. Raziel

    Raziel Jimmy Neighbour

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    Poch got lucky because

    - He had the core of a great side to begin with, and was able to add to that with a few top level signings (Toby, Dembele, Dele, etc.)

    Considering his track record post of being able to identify, and integrate (without taking 2 fudging years) new players into the side, it is quite clear without the "luck" of having a mostly complete side, he most likely would have struggled.

    Does that luck negate how he got the team playing for primarily a 3 year period? = no, it just goes back to my point, right manager, right time and place ..

    I think people get confused with my point of view, so to clarify

    - Did I think Poch did a great job for us? = absolutely
    - Did I think he overachieved = yes and no, yes in the league consistency, no due to not taking the chances he had to really win something
    - Do I think he is a great manager = no, see my point above, right manager, right time and club. I simply don't see him going on to win lots of things with other clubs (he has real limitations)

    My bitterness with Poch is (despite what Spurs fans seem to remember), he fudged us in the end, he hanged on with the team in a death spiral for almost 12 months, broke the team spirit and made Levy fire him and pay him out. If he had walked away after the CL (where it was already obvious he no longer wanted to be here), we all would rightly look back on his time with a lot more fondness.
     
  12. Bishop

    Bishop Goran Bunjevcevic

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    Poch was the better coach no doubt, he actually achieved more with less so I give him all the credit. It's just to say that Harry had the full side front good defense, to the best midfield over seen at spurs to a fantastic am in VDV and Bale starting out. We literally just lacked a competent striker.

    Defoe was ok but he was never a top striker, topping out at 11 goals a season is just below average to be honest and in that side with the amount of chances we created it was poor. I don't even want to get into Crouch who was just fudging brick. I still get angry when I think of all the chances that waste man used to fudge up.

    But back to Poch, he really did an excellent job getting the very best out of a somewhat limited bunch. To the extent that even our own fans started to believe that the players were better than they truly well and that credit I have to give to Poch.
     
  13. glasgowspur

    glasgowspur Nick Barmby

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    It's been a long time since a multi trophy winning coach/manager walked into a club and a team from nothing/little.
    Fergie was probably the last, did the rest all get lucky?
     
  14. billyiddo

    billyiddo David Ginola Staff Member

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    poch sure got lucky with all those big stars that had been there and done it prior to his arrival
     
    Baleforce likes this.
  15. Baleforce

    Baleforce Fanny Walden

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    no such thing as luck, its all process and work rate
     
  16. glorygloryeze

    glorygloryeze Jimmy McCormick

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    I think the way things ended was indeed bitter: the comments in the media and perhaps his reluctance to rotate enough of the players he bought in in the end harmed us (though that could be said that those who came in were simply not good enough to dislodge the main starters: again that whole competition for a starter vs 'building up the squad' - two separate things imo).

    But i don't think you should let how it unraveled detract from the good work HE DID DO: I'm sure if you go back to your own posts when he was appointed and in the first 18 months you wouldn't have EXPECTED Poch to have us get top 4 four years in a row given the team he inherited, after all his predecessors didn't.

    What he did was NOT lucky or at least no more so than any other manager in the PL who was able to get top 4 consecutively with our resources (again, remember how you use our rescources vs our opponents to praise Levy..)
     
  17. glorygloryeze

    glorygloryeze Jimmy McCormick

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    Yeah, Redknapp's team with a certified 20-goal a season striker equals constant top 4 and a trophy imo.
    Kane's rise is possibly one thing that Poch was lucky with (and even that is debatable because by all accounts he gave him extra attention etc in terms of how to better himself via individual motivation and also how to watch other stars and take interest in how they keep themselves at the top)
     
  18. Raziel

    Raziel Jimmy Neighbour

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    That is either a very naïve or arrogant statement.

    Luck/circumstance are part of any success, personal or professional, probably even more so in sport (an injury that gives a young and upcoming player a chance, an injury that weakens a team at just the wrong moment, a deflection that wins that point/game).

    Again, if luck gives you the right circumstances, you have to take it (and that's on you, the work, effort, ability), but it's still there ..
     
  19. Baleforce

    Baleforce Fanny Walden

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    Thats not luck, luck doesn’t exist.

    That injury wasn’t a smiting by the universe, it was physics, a result of thousands of prior inputs, putting the body in that position, and the opposing forces that clash, likewise the deflection, maths doesn’t play favourites.
     
  20. Raziel

    Raziel Jimmy Neighbour

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    Luck, chance, circumstance are a thing, and math can prove that (the odds of something happening, does not equal it happening), hence if the odds of injuries to a squad are high (e.g. last December where 70+ were injured in the league), if your team got out of that fixture list with minimum injuries or no injuries to major players, you got lucky (of course you can pretend it was 400% under control based on rotation/medical teams, but it isn't)

    The odds of a tackle breaking Son's arm in a way that prevents him from playing just after Harry blows his hamstring (first in his career) is a set of circumstances that can only be articulated as luck (bad luck in this case). We are taking about the very rare odds of something happening, actually happening in a way that has a material impact on a game or season, not about someone wearing their "lucky socks" on game day.

    And if you believe all of these things are under control, predictable and will never affect you ..
     

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